pope

Arrogance or ignorance, take your pick. What motivates somebody to take a little road-side wilderness (where bolting is mostly absent) and "enhance" it with those tacky, shiny, alien looking devices? It has to be either arrogance or ignorance. There's an assumption that an alpine meadow, a snowy peak or an ancient piece of granite that has been carved by the advance of glaciers....these things are all about as aesthetic as they can be, and they are best appreciated by generation after generation if we keep them in their natural state. They offer unblemished beauty and undiminished challenge. That the way we find 'em, that the way we should leave 'em. Mentioning arrogance, and mentioning "enhancement", it seems that even rap bolters are not completely tolerant of creative expressions that are left behind at our cliffs. Our CC.com Index historians might be able to comment on the correctness of my facts, but I'm pretty sure the first chopping episode at Index resulted in the removal of zero bolts, and I think the chopping was performed by a sport climber who is reported to possess great vision and maintain an open mind. I believe that in response to the creative improvements going on in the early days of Index rap bolting, a couple of boys decided that in addition to a string of bolts enhancing the aesthetics of the cliff, a rotting pig carcass would make a great conversation piece and further improve on what mother nature had so inadequately created in the Sky Valley. The bolts remained, the pig was removed, but not without the comment, "I didn't chop your rap-placed bolts. Why are you removing my lead-placed pig?" I'm pretty sure we could live without both additions.

I can't speak for every bolt puller, as to what motivates them or whether they felt like crusaders or whatever. The only time I was involved in restoration, I felt like an enforcer I suppose, but I felt no pride or arrogance during nor subsequent to the act. I only hoped it would discourage the next party from putting up a bolt trail at Castle Rock. I do feel a responsibility to do my part in preventing the Vantage syndrome from spreading, and I don't think of myself as imposing my belief on everybody else. Again, we're talking about an increasingly limited resource: sunny, granite climbing in Washington which has many classic, nut protected climbs, and where arguably unaesthetic bolt trails have been absent for generations. I'm willing to risk being called a rock cop in order to preserve what many agree should be preserved but are perhaps unwilling to actually do something about. I wish there were a better way.

I don't think it is an indicator of arrogance when one believes that a cliff should remain somewhat true to its natural state, so that many generations of climbers can experience that feeling of pioneering, of using skill and judgement not only to ascend but also to safeguard their ascent through rigging protection. If we allow one climber to put up a low-adventure, highly bolted sport route.....if we allow that he should have the right to make these alterations, then what do we say to the guy who wants to chop holds? Perhaps a rock hound would like to chop out a few specimen crystsals for his collection, or maybe a developer would like to erect a gondola ride and collect fees from tourists..what grounds do we have protesting these uses of our vertical resource, once we allow bolting and/or chipping? I don't think it's a manifestation of arrogance when climbers feel so passionate about this "wilderness ethic" (even if the cliff in question is a 5-minute walk off of Hwy 2) that they are willing to do something about it. I certainly don't speak for everybody who has pulled a bolt, but I think most of them are not interested in attacking an individual or his work. I think most bolt pullers just don't know what else to do to stop the increase in bolt use. I personally feel that at an area that has a long tradition of bolt-free climbing, chopping a sport route MUST be performed because of the message not chopping sends out to those who would love to develop sport routes. I agree with you to some extent. I personally think the outdoor gym environment of Exit 32 is a joke, but it would be arrogant of me or anybody else to walk in there and try to disrupt that circus by pulling bolts. I don't think anybody is doing this. What is happening is that sport climbers are coming to traditionally bolt-free areas and placing bolts (in the form of new sport climbs, retrobolting formerly bold climbs, and bolting clean aid lines to produce free clims). MattP, we agree on a bunch of things. I'm not saying that every bolt is a crime, and I think you agree that bolting excesses exist. The question is what to do about it. Molly says, "I'd pay cold cash if Dwayner were allowed to comment in this forum. How long's it been now, two months? I miss that hunk of burnin' love and his sassy bolt talk."

"Never doubt what we don't really know about." Willy Wonka

Now if you decide to try to suck out the cork, consider letting our boy Cracked have a crack at it. I'm pretty sure he could do it ('cause he thinks Molly Ringwald is ugly).

Your bolting stance seems about as central and politically milk-toast as they come. I agree with (nearly) every item in your code, but I'm curious about how you'd suggest we deal with other, more controversial questions. About that Molly.....

Come back when you've got something to say.

Back to the subject boys....

Tell me more! Where would one view this masterpiece?

My theory doesn't imply it, and I don't suggest it. I'm just saying that if we're going to have a discussion about bolts, we should be careful about the reasons we use to advocate their use, since the next generation could easily tell you to open your mind to chipping (dont' look back man), and the logic behind your endorsement of the sport climbing nonethic will come right back atcha, Cleopatra. Now about Molly......

Anyway, I thought this thread had evolved into a discussion of......

I think they are different activities with somewhat different results, but in many ways they are equivalent: 1. Both a bolt and a chipped hold can be employed to "make a route go" which would otherwise present too great of a challenge. It has been argued by bolt enthusiasts that bolts only reduce danger and the cerebral challenge of leading, whereas chipping may reduce the physical challenge. However, it is not obvious that these elements (physical/mental) are completely separable. With a bolt at your hip, and with the next one just above your head, you can afford to climb with more abandon, you can push to the point of falling off. For a given grade, you can be less fit, less of an athlete and still try to push through on a sport route, whereas on a route where gear is sparse, you must climb with much more physical control, with enough reserve to climb down if you can't make it to the next gear. In short, you've got to be better prepared physically. Put 25 bolts on the Bachar Yerian and a novice 5.11 climber will certainly get the redpoint. In its current state, you should probably be a 5.12 climber to get on that thing. Which is why I haven't. Anyway, bolts do diminish both mental and physical challenge in this way, which makes them seem similar to chipping holds. 2. Whether it's a bolt or a chipped hold, the decision to employ it will alter the appearance of the rock, and the change is arguably permanent. A bolt is always a visual intrusion on the wilderness which is noticed by every climber and often by other recreational users; a chipped hold is often a visual intrusion that can be notice by climbers. Not everybody agrees that bolts are unaesthetic intrusions on the wilderness experience, and not everybody agrees that chipped holds are either. 3. In order to employ a bolt or a chipped hold, you have to assume that future parties will appreciate your permanent alterations. Otherwise you've got to be willing to say that you don't care what everybody else thinks and carry out your plan. In this case, you're basically stating that the route you're establishing is in some sense your private property. Bolts and chipped holds are certainly different in that currently far more people approve of bolts. My point is that this difference is not based on logic and ethical principle but is merely popular sentiment.

Then... And now.....

I don't post over there any more. Too much editing, deleted posts, familiar avatars just disappearing in the night. No man, that forum is kind of weird.

Two questions: 1. Just who is promoting pin scars? Is this a conversation you actually had with somebody or have you been hearing voices? 2. A string of bolts diminishes the challenge, both physically and mentally. How did you decide these two aspects of climbing are so separable? There's no way you're going to hang dog your way up a 2-bolt horror pitch, no way to cheat and work out the moves for that eventual pink point. If you're going to lead it, you'd better be ready, you'd better be fit, you'd better have the skill and experience necessary to keep a cool head. If the Bachar-Yerian had 18 bolts on it, it would be both physically and many times mentally less of a challenge. In many, many cases, if it is absoute safety you desire, you could achieve your goals with a top-rope. If you think clipping a bunch of bolts makes it more thrilling or more challenging (but your not prepared to try to get these bolts in on the lead), then I suppose you could top-rope the pitch with about 2.8 feet of slack to simulate a burly Vantage pitch.

Could be that he's lost his way. I haven't climbed in Europe, although I certainly hope to. You don't have to travel that far to find examples of chipping. Right?

Pope behaved poorly, it is true. But MattP, meet the new me!

I believe there is a history (as reported by Bachar from one of his visits) in the Verdon of climbers seeking routes at the current limit (5.13 at that time) and actually creating such lines by chipping holds in blank sections to link climbable sections of rock. Im pretty sure that most chipping occurs when a route pioneer wishes to "make the line go". In other cases, sharp jug holds are rounded down so that somebody's girlfriend can get the purple point. In any case, chipping, gluing, enhancing (and of course bolting) do fall into a single category if you're asking the question, "Has the rock been permanently and visibly modified?" And because of this, I really don't care whether the goal is a hard climb or an easy climb, I just think it's immoral. Last time I hiked up to Exit 38, I noticed a sign which PROMOTED the use of glue. This is how far we've come? This is the thing to which some of you want me to open my mind? (The sign also commented on the removal of "begetation" [sic]).

Isn't that interesting?

It might be more correct to say that you were poking a hole in an assertion that exists only in your imagination. I never wrote those words, nor did I write anything that remotely resembles them. I simply stated that fewer people considered it acceptable to modify permanently or "enhance" the rock to accomodate the safety concerns of their ascent. That nuts were easier to place and allowed for advances in free climbing is certainly true, but your assertion that this was the PRIMARY reason for their popularity is ridiculous. Firstly, you're pretending to know the motivations of thousands of climbers you never met. Secondly, you can hardly explain the clean aid phenomenon as a pragmatist's solution to climbing. Everybody knows that far greater safety can be found when you're willing to smack a few pins, in the majority of situations. Cutting edge climbers of the 70's and 80's worked to eliminate pins from aid routes, and they did this to INCREASE THE CHALLENGE LEVEL OF WALL CLIMBING as well as to preserve the beauty of the rock (according to almost every account I've read by those who pioneered clean wall climbing). The fact is, places like Vantage were being explored and developed long before sport climbing arrived. The fact is, bolts existed and were available then. The fact is, if somebody had put up a collection of rap-placed bolt trails, he would have been widely (and correctly) considered a coward. You just didn't see that kind of mess then, although the capability certainly existed, and although it certainly would have made climbing easier (which, as you recall, is what you consider to be the primary motivation for all human actions). I think this evidence flies in the face of your notion that most/all climbers were primarily motivated by making climbing easier/safer/simpler when they adopted clean climbing practices. You should really consider what I'm saying about chipping, because it's not just a bunch of handwaving. The notion that it is acceptable to modify the rock to make it safer or more climbable through the use of bolts is precisely the mentality that exists among those who chip holds. And they are ethically equivalent practices. Finally, you're an articulate guy who often demonstrates both vision and wisdom. Next time you're considering flinging a bunch of insults my way, you may wish instead to preserve your reputation and respect. You may wish to maintain a little more dignity while you attempt to make your points.

OK, that did it, Mr......Mr. MattyP. I'm not going to respond to your juvenile insults. I know that you and your big, important moderator buddies have this agenda to provoke me into saying something I'll regret (something routinely obscene from any other contributor, but something perhaps just a little out of character for me), so that you guys can call me a "prick" and arbitrarily ban me for some unspecified period of time, just like you did my buddy Dwayner. But I'm not falling for it, Mr. Matt. Nope. I am... like... so through with your horseshit. I'm just going to pretend you're not even there, and I'm going to let those petty insults just bounce right off, right back at 'cha, Cleopatra.

Yeah...you can't see bolts from the road - especially if they're powder coated, but you can see the cleaned off rock "trail" and ensuing chalk marks. To me the visual impact of all are related. exactly. so why not try to minimalize where we can? i do not use chalk ever because of this very reason. every activity has an impact to some extent (especially in nature) and it is our responsibility to minimalize this in every way we can. i am drinking beer in order to consume less freshwater Now, let it be known, one of my favorite seasonal beers is again available: Pyramid's Snow Cap Ale....mahogany in color, complex and spicy yet deliciously smooth. And 7%, may I add. Hey, I believe I'll have another.

Maybe I can actually take a few moments to put some ideas together rather than just spray the first stupid comment that comes to mind. You may credit Dru with that witty quote.