pope

Lame.

As a moderator, is it your job to steer the discussion away from the topic? Is this really a thread about what Pope believes, about how he qualifies as a fundamentalist? Reading your contribution, one might assume as much. MattP thanked you for your post, and he's a moderator, so maybe I'm really confused. But I think you're full of shit. For example: I believe mountain climbing's goal is to climb mountains. Start at the bottom, don't make a mess. How you arrived at the statement you make about my beliefs is very mysterious. That's an incredibly stupid and hollow statement to make. Why would I believe that somebody else has the correct interpretation of mountaineering ethics? If that were the case, I'd jump on their bandwagon. Are you suggesting that each climber should figure out the ethical stance/practice that is right for him, kind of like choosing a religion or sexual preference? And then we should all embrace the resulting diversity? Bullshit. Choosing to spray bolts all over the crag is not a personal decision, it affects everybody, like blowing cigarette smoke or throwing your trash down at a public park. Again, you infer much, you deduce little. There are climbers who think no bolts are acceptable. Period. I'm not that extreme.....but I concede that these guys might just be right. Other guys will place gear in a crack on rap, hang-dog the moves, get the redpoint and race back to the bar to brag. In my mind, I think such an approach is less than ideal and kind of silly, but I concede that when they're done, when they pull their ropes, they leave the rock the way they found it and that's pretty bitchin. Huh? What are you talking about? You want nuance? Go climb the via ferrata. Go to Vantage and clip bolts every four feet on a 35-foot pitch. And you can claim to be vehemently opposed to the via ferrata (while simultaneously accusing me of holding views devoid of nuance) but I recall you boasting about bolting a hold onto some secret cliff on your property. For all I know, you've got a via ferrata in your back yard. Thanks for that, Off White. Now if we can get back on subject. P.S., I'll keep a copy of this and post on Ascensionist if it gets deleted. Regarding Numbah Ten, I think you and MattP are really clueless. That thing aids on nuts the entire way.

Point is, you don't have a point. That's why you're hiding over here in SPRAY where you can punctuate your nonsense with more four-letter words.

Now think about it, OffWhitey, if I'm a fundamentalist for believing that poorly protected climbs are no longer in surplus and, when such a climb is ascended boldly without permanent alterations, it should be preserved as a testament to the free-spirited lunacy of adventure climbing....if this belief qualifies me to be a fundamentalist, why is it that you suggest that my drawing parallels between Numbah Ten and via ferrata is a "flamboyant over-the-top troll"? Are you suggesting that via ferrata aren't among the acceptable modifications rock climbers should endorse? I believe an omniscient, free-thinking man like you would view the via ferrata as yet another triumph of man and technology over the vertical environment, just another shade on the gray scale of mountaineering morality.

etc. etc. Nobody suggested pins are better than bolts (although I believe they are). A route like Numbah Ten aids on nuts. Many of those slots (#2 RP if I recall) were created by pins. I think the route could be climbed free with RP protection now (even if rap placed) and it would be ten times the accomplishment that it now is. The trail of bolts leading up that climb is in no way an improvement on the pin scars that make nutting possible.

So what...? You spend your days in the mountains surveying other people's attitudes towards fixed gear. Jesus christ you're obsessed! I suppose none of those people would have been there if it weren't for those bolts you described right? No, that ridge probably had hundreds of ascents before the fixed gear was added. It's 3rd class. Probably most of the climbers on this board would say that because the route is so easy, it doesn't need bolts. Yet you can find scramblers who are belaying and happy to clip these enormously intrusive fixtures. I didn't survey anybody, I just noticed that practically everybody was using them. I suggest that if somebody were to drag up Lundin a few bags of ready-mix and some cable, the addition of cement steps and a hand rail would be welcome by many happy hikers. Previously unwilling to haul ropes and risk technical terrain, these hikers would suddenly find Lundin's summit attainable. Traffic would increase. Somebody would add a sit start. I think that in mountaineering and rock climbing, we should let the terrain dictate the difficulty and available protection. Matt asked under what conditions it might be acceptable to add bolts to an established climb. Many will pick out a climb like Dan's Dreadful Direct and say that because it's dangerous, dirty and hard, adding bolts is appropriate. But why lower the standard to make the route more user-friendly? How is that so different than what we now have on Lundin Peak? I thought standards were increasing, what with the new, intrepid attitudes and such. Why do we need to make easier routes like Iron Horse? Cannot the young upstarts equal the heroic deeds of yesterday's icons?

It's not funny. I look at Numbah Ten and then the via ferratta pasted into this thread and I see... 1. A bunch of shiny stuff that don't belong on da rock. 2. A bunch of shiny stuff that forms a trail. 3. A cliff that is easier to climb in its altered state. 4. A cliff is that is safer to climb in its altered state. 5. Both modifications are difficult to view on a sunny day without sun glasses. 6. A bunch of smug little fuckers who probably wouldn't come near those walls if it weren't for all of the engineering/aids. Now I'm struggling to contrast the two. Well, up on Lundin Peak one can find belay/protection bolts with enormous, home-made, pear-shaped hangers. These, I assume, were added to the 3rd-class ridge climb at the same time as a plaque that marks the point where a Boe-Alps instructor slipped to his doom. Virtually every climber I saw the day I checked it out was happy to clip the bolts. Maybe a few of them would have appreciated a hand rail as well. When a climb gets done without bolts, I can't see how adding bolts is ever justified (except maybe at a belay on a popular climb). I don't think it is our job to alter the rock with the goal of increasing traffic, rescuing lost classics, or making rock climbing safer/easier for wide consumption. There is no shortage of safe, easy, heavily-altered, bolt-dependent climbing available.

Right, Index is vertical garbage, pressed pig shit, not worth fussing about when somebody decides to add their own "contribution". Let's not get bent out of shape when this guy shows up:

Huh? We're supposed to believe that a bolt trail is somehow more attractive than a few pin scars? Somehow, Numbah Ten is more aesthetic with a mess of bolts? That climb aids cleanly and is 5.11 climbing except for maybe one move. Too bad folks weren't patient enough to free it on gear. I don't buy the idea that a trail of bolts "saves the rock" and I don't think that's the primary motivation in bolting a line like that.

yes--"gym" climbing being indoors or "out" is different than going out and climbing actual rock. even if we're just talking about cragging. i'm sure that i'm not the only one that's seen some "straight from the gym" near catastrophes at our local crags. Why is this surprising? In the gym, you connnect the technicolor magenta plastic holds whilst clipping the stupid-assed bolts every 3.2 feet. Out at the sport crag, the holds.......they's not color-coded! How primitive? The bolts is there, the holds ain't be obious, due to the lack of "trail markings". Thus the confusion and the proliferation of accidents.

Shades of Franky:

And lets not forget the '94 fire (started by a resident) followed by "salvage logging".

Thank you. I'm happy the physics project has been aborted, but your paragraph nicely summarizes how I feel. Man has certainly changed the Canyon in the last 20 years. Climbers included.

A gym is a nursery for sport climbing.

Did he get a reduction?

Ed, you keep making that face and it will stick like that. Edited by Peter_Puget (07/22/05 11:03 PM)

Now I'm looking at that photo next to your post. I've never met anybody named Ed....or anybody, for that matter, who has a profile quite like that!

Here's what I found lurking at the bottom of a Daryl Cramer post:

That's all I need to know.

Well, that's where U&ICI2I...and probably most people who read this drivel agree that we shouldn't "adversely affect the rock" and that what we see in the photo I pasted qualifies as "adversely affecting the rock". But remember, there is a continent where via ferrata routes are seen as "improvements" to the natural walls, not adversity, in the same way American "climbers" have, in the last couple of decades, decided that sport climbing and its bolt trails are improvements. Our current attitude results from emulating climbers from Europe instead of taking pride in the 1970's clean-climbing ethic. Europe is home of the via ferrata....and perhaps predicts where American alpine sports are trending. Forget your quest to find the current, local consensus at Index. How about a greater vision? How about making your own effort to steer the next generation of climbers in a direction that maximizes adventure and (all aspects of) difficulty, while simultaneously leaving the rock in tact for future generations? How about deciding to say, "F*&%k the current, local ethic. Let's aim for higher ground."?

Spooo....

I would refer you to the WCC. They will tell you that they're making an effort to discourage the illegal bolting that occurs in wilderness areas. Outside of that, just remember that rock climbing is all about making your own rules.

What? You moved it? I thought this was Petey's Corner. Anway, yeah, adding bolts (additional bolts) to free routes at Index happens ALL THE TIME and nobody should be surprised. If you complain about it here, you will be banned. OK, that's all I have to say about it. Good night.