goatboy

Yeah forrest, Good Point. The scenery of the sibley ridge approach was STELLAR, and I got some great photos and memories, and great looks at Dorado Needle, Early Morning Spire, etc. HOWEVER, I think I could have gotten those great views without the pack full of useless technical gear, ropes, rack, etc -- I think I WOULD go do the sibley approach again, now that I think about it -- but with a daypack on a dayhike, with only a camera and a block of cheese for company, and photos my only objective. Anyway, I hope to try the NW Couloir another fall -- though I question if this year's snowpack will create favorable conditions come fall? I understand that (like many routes) conditions dictate everything for this NW Couloir route. I also understand that fall is a long way off and it's anyone's guess at this point. It's just a skeleton in my closet and I've got to go get back up there! S

Yeah. Was that on the 7th of October? If so, that was me and Tony. We were bivied in the regular parking lot on friday night, then drove up sibley creek to our doom the next morning. Were y'all the folks who had been seeking ice up in BC -- two 20-30 year olds -- or another party? Steve

Thanks for the route update Jerry. I assume you're describing SIBLEY Ridge (not Sibling Ridge) I ATTEMPTED to approach Eldo Glacier via Sibley Ridge last October and I will never go that way again. Either the route descriptions I had were too vague or I am too dumb -- maybe both -- but we ended up dropping down the wrong gully into the wrong basin and ended up cliffed out on a subsidiary ridge looking across at the Triad and the clear snow slope giving access to the Eldo Glacier -- but after hours of steep talus and scree traversing to get to the wrong place, and as it was already 3 PM, with dark coming about 5 PM, we decided to bivy where we were and bag the climb. As it turned out, there was a rock bivy already built for us on the only flat spot on the ridge -- apparently, some others had followed the same route description we had. I'm not blaming route descriptions, WE blew it -- but I am saying that even though I now know what we did wrong, and could probably go back and do better, the approach itself, as Nelson's book says, "follows a long sinewy ridge, leaving you far from the mountain." And the approach itself is FAR from straightforward, lots and lots of steep loose rock or steep grass (which would have taken crampons well), exposed in places, and easy to screw up the routefinding. We ended up eating jiffy pop popcorn and enjoying a great sunset -- no real climbing to speak of, though. And we woke the next morning to freezing rain at 5 am. I have never been up there this early in the year, and maybe the snowy conditions Jerry described would have sped up a lot of the loose, nervewracking traversing -- I don't know, but I highly doubt I'll go back the Sibley way again. I think I would just blitz straight up the steep but straightforward eldo creek approach. Has anyone had a different or slightly recommended experience going in to eldo via sibley ridge? If so, please dilute my cynical and negative report with some good tales of your own. Steve

Curious: Where is the original topo to which you refer? Sounds like you can do the whole route with just draws? Weird. Steve

There have been lots of incidents on Denali in which rope teams venture onto steep icy terrain without placing intermediate pro, and a fall results in the entire team being unable to arrest, and going down. Another (better) scenario is that in which one has a rope team on low angle snow slopes with no pro, but has faith in the rope team's ability to self-arrest (e.g. climbing with less experienced folks for whom soloing would be a bad idea). I've seen this lots of time at outdoor schools, or guided climbs on Rainier or what have you. Of course, this is just the sort of scenario which can start off benign and end up on the Denali-like terrain mentioned above, with similar results. On rock routes it's impossible to self-arrest per se, so if you're tied together and there's no pro, you're simply multiplying your chances of having one person's fall pluck the entire team off the route. These are the routes that have sections which seem best to solo. I totally agree with Dru's point -- the question of safety versus ineffeciency of unroping, coiling, etc -- and where people draw that line is obviously in different places for different people. Speed is safety, in one sense -- yet trying to be "speedy" can result is higher risk and carelessness. Seems like a judgment call, as so many mountaineering choices seem to be. I hope this interesting thread doesn't degenerate into a spray fest! Steve

There have been lots of incidents on Denali in which rope teams venture onto steep icy terrain without placing intermediate pro, and a fall results in the entire team being unable to arrest, and going down. Another (better) scenario is that in which one has a rope team on low angle snow slopes with no pro, but has faith in the rope team's ability to self-arrest (e.g. climbing with less experienced folks for whom soloing would be a bad idea). I've seen this lots of time at outdoor schools, or guided climbs on Rainier or what have you. Of course, this is just the sort of scenario which can start off benign and end up on the Denali-like terrain mentioned above, with similar results. On rock routes it's impossible to self-arrest per se, so if you're tied together and there's no pro, you're simply multiplying your chances of having one person's fall pluck the entire team off the route. These are the routes that have sections which seem best to solo. I totally agree with Dru's point -- the question of safety versus ineffeciency of unroping, coiling, etc -- and where people draw that line is obviously in different places for different people. Speed is safety, in one sense -- yet trying to be "speedy" can result is higher risk and carelessness. Seems like a judgment call, as so many mountaineering choices seem to be. I hope this interesting thread doesn't degenerate into a spray fest! Steve

Two pennies worth: MSR apparently grew tired of replacing all of the dragonflies which were dying due to carbon buildup in the "simmer" valve (the little paper-clip thing which you turn to control heat). NOW they make a small, specialized tool which is available -- they gave me mine for free, but I went there in person and pleaded my case, I think they charge for them now, something like $5 -- to ream out the simmer valve. A few whacks with the little tool and that baby fires right up. Call them if you have a dragonfly which is pissing you off, I love my dragonfly now that I've figured out what kind of field maintenance it needs. You can carry that little tool into the field for longer trips, or just clean the thing realy well before shorter trips. I like the Fly because it simmers, and doesn't burn my rice and beans, which so many other stoves seem to do. Of course, there is the old trick of releasing some of the pressure out of the Whisperlite fuel bottle to make it simmer, but you really need to keep an eye on it or it will extinguish. For simmering , the dragonfly kicks ass. Hey David Parker, I had a Peak One moon landing unit too for awhile, and it DIED on me, in desperate times, I ended up eating snow and vowing to dropkick the thing across the leavenworth parking lot. Glad to hear someone beat me to it. (By the way, I would have retrieved my stove and put it in the trash after dropkicking it, because Leavenworth is nowhere near the Polish Direct, and I am nowhere near Elite). Steve

hi John, The road is open, though it may still close again temporarily if more snow or slides come down. Check out road conditions at: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/regions/northcentral/maint/area3/nc2001/nc1.htm I have no idea if the route is in good shape right now. I would guess that there's some avalanche concern right now, with the recent snowfall in the area and the warming trend, though I have not been up there lately. Anyone been up there or seen the route lately? steve

Thanks for the route report. I climbed this route with two friends two years ago in May, the year of the BIG cascade snowpack. The large chockstone which Nelson describes in his guidebook as the crux was completely buried and indistinguishable -- we climbed right over it on the 30-45 degree snow, using a single ice ax each. Like you, we had a rope and some pro, but it stayed in the pack. We had crampons as well, which also stayed in the pack. I imagine that under different conditions (i.e. less snow, more ice or rock) that one might be very glad to have some protection, but we had moderately steep snow only. Like you, we also encountered a huge cornice at the top, which overhung the East Buttress. There was so much snow, in fact, that one member of our party carried skis up the SW Couloir and actually skied back down the couloir from the top, which was exciting and terrifying to watch. Though we had approached via spire gully (from the hairpin), we descended to the blue lake trailhead due to lots of point release avalanches barreling down spire gully in the late morning. I think the route will be different this year, due to the lighter snowpack. For example, I wonder what that chockstone section was like for you?? I look forward to more reports if anyone else goes up there anytime soon. Steve Smith

Thanks for the route report. I climbed this route with two friends two years ago in May, the year of the BIG cascade snowpack. The large chockstone which Nelson describes in his guidebook as the crux was completely buried and indistinguishable -- we climbed right over it on the 30-45 degree snow, using a single ice ax each. Like you, we had a rope and some pro, but it stayed in the pack. We had crampons as well, which also stayed in the pack. I imagine that under different conditions (i.e. less snow, more ice or rock) that one might be very glad to have some protection, but we had moderately steep snow only. Like you, we also encountered a huge cornice at the top, which overhung the East Buttress. There was so much snow, in fact, that one member of our party carried skis up the SW Couloir and actually skied back down the couloir from the top, which was exciting and terrifying to watch. I think this route will be different this year, due to the lighter snowpack. I look forward to reports if anyone else goes up there anytime soon. Steve Smith

For some great visual aids relating to all of this comparative rope technique analysis, see Freedom of the Hills (5th Ed) pp. 227-230. Steve

The who cares post is an absolute embarrasment to climbers. However, I would ask that the website managers NOT remove it, but rather have all of us recognize that these sorts of uncaring people are in fact out there in the climbing world. I have seen climbers pitch in and help each other when the going gets tough, and I've seen them ignore others in need so that they can focus on their own summit plans or whatever. I'm glad we get to see the "who cares" post, for it represents a reality that many people out there are climbing for themselves, and don't give a damn about others. Good to remember that, I think. Best of luck to the folks involved in the search and rescue, and to the missing climbers.

The who cares post is an absolute embarrasment to climbers. However, I would ask that the website managers NOT remove it, but rather have all of us recognize that these sorts of uncaring people are in fact out there in the climbing world. I have seen climbers pitch in and help each other when the going gets tough, and I've seen them ignore others in need so that they can focus on their own summit plans or whatever. I'm glad we get to see the "who cares" post, for it represents a reality that many people out there are climbing for themselves, and don't give a damn about others. Good to remember that, I think. Best of luck to the folks involved in the search and rescue, and to the missing climbers.

Dear Steve O, I find it fascinating that you describe "climbing ethics" as a "lame topic," yet find so much inspiration to write the heated post that you wrote about this "lame topic." I also find it interesting that you write, "Why dont you just leave everyone else alone and worry about yourselfs" when you're failing to model that behavior yourself(s). Personally, I think that climbing has a lot to teach us about ethics and morals, about how we treat each other and how we treat the wilderness, and believe that it's perfectly valid (if not essential) for climbers to discuss ethics as a process of figuring those things out for themselves. This thread arose out of an earlier thread about hauling loads to Muir, but it definitely touches on larger issues. If people out there aren't interested in those issues, fine, but let's not condemn the issues as "lame" just because you're not interested in them. Steve Smith

Dear Steve O, I find it fascinating that you describe "climbing ethics" as a "lame topic," yet find so much inspiration to write the heated post that you wrote about this "lame topic." I also find it interesting that you write, "Why dont you just leave everyone else alone and worry about yourselfs" when you're failing to model that behavior yourself(s). Personally, I think that climbing has a lot to teach us about ethics and morals, about how we treat each other and how we treat the wilderness, and believe that it's perfectly valid (if not essential) for climbers to discuss ethics as a process of figuring those things out for themselves. This thread arose out of an earlier thread about hauling loads to Muir, but it definitely touches on larger issues. If people out there aren't interested in those issues, fine, but let's not condemn the issues as "lame" just because you're not interested in them. Steve Smith

I have a nice photo of the north side, taken from the highway near rainy pass, but I need to figure out how to digitize it for you. I'll see what I can do about that. Meanwhile, good luck. I'm sure you know that Nelson's new book (II) has a photo or two of it as well. Steve

Thanks to everyone for the info! Sounds like some good opportunities for me to get off the "Hilary Step" called Outer Space and onto some quality routes which are less crowded. By the way, it was the one known as Smoker who was questioning the wee hours, not me!!! See you folks at Gustav's. Steve

I'm curious if anyone has heard a report as to when HWY 20 will most likely open this lean-snow year. Thanks, Steve

Jim Nelson's second guide describes a route called Hyperspace on snow creek wall. I'm curious if anyone out there has done the route and what they thought, and if they have any thoughts on gear or routefinding or anything else pertinent which Nelson does not mention. Also, is the route wet in early season (as many of the routes up there seem to be)? Thanks in advance. Steve

Like many innovations, it sounds like its worth a try. The key, in my opinion, would be to wear a very thin liner glove against your skin, then the VBL (hopefully one that won't shred too easily), then an insulated glove on top. I sometimes use waterproof (?) mitts and take my right hand out of the mitten to fumble with gear, leaving the mitt hanging in the leash, in the well-driven tool in the ice. Then slip my hand back into the leashed mitt when I'm ready. Works pretty well for me except on very wet or very cold days. Any cold I accumulate while my hand is out of the mitt is rapidly compensated for by the fingers all warm together in the mitt (rather than having fingers separated by a glove). I'm sure people have their own systems, this is just the one that seems to work for me, for now. I've also seen those black rubber "ice gloves" in various magazines, but have never tried them. As I think about it, I haven't seen those glove ads in some time, maybe they went out of business? Maybe for good reason? The mystery continues....

I'm no doctor, but I have suffered from tendinitis for about 7 years and have collected a fair amount of information about the topic. The pain you're having sounds like "climber's elbow," also known as medial epicondylitis. All of these terms add up to tendinitis, which can be a potentially debilitating condition if ignored (which you are wisely not doing). Different people respond in different ways to various treatments, but the one treatment that seems most likely to help is to REST it and to AVOID REINJURING it once it heals. Tendinitis is the result of little micro-injuries to the tendon, which is, in the elbow's case, a very non-vascular area (very little blood flow to the area). This is why it is slow to heal, as blood flow promotes healing. Since the elbow gets very little blood flow, it can be slow to heal. All of these little micro-injuries can add up and create the inflammation and pain that you now feel. I would recommend the following: 1) Applying heat and cold to the elbow (ie hot water bottle, ice pack) will stimulate blood flow as the capillaries in the area dilate and contract with the heat and the cold. This may promote healing. 2) Resting the elbow and NOT CLIMBING on it is essential to getting beyond the inflammation stage and into the healing stage. 3) Stretching and strengthening the muscles around the elbow seems like a good way to avoid future injury. I don't believe you can actually stretch the tendon itself, but you can warm up and stretch the muscles themselves so they absorb more of the dynamic force of climbing and impart less of that shock into the fragile tendon area. 4) My guess is that your biceps are much stronger than your triceps, which creates an imbalance in the way your arms exert force onto the elbow joint. Consider doing exercises which are aimed at specifically building up your triceps for a more balanced push-pull action. 5) Finally, beware of climbing gyms, or at least the OVERUSE of climbing gyms, which often compel climbers to utilize micro edges and holds which exert extreme force onto tendons. It was in a gym that I first hurt myself. Now, 7 years later, I still suffer from tendinitis and am going to have a sort of last-resort shot of cortizone today in my left elbow. I do NOT recommend cortizone as a first step, rather, as a last step, after you've tried lots of other treatments. Let me know if this all makes sense or if you have any other opinions, treatments, or questions. Also, please correct me if I'm inaccurate in any of my information, I'm eager to learn more. Good luck with your elbow, Rafael! Steve Smith

I took a level I course from NAI on Mt Hood in january and it was excellent, though the low snowpack did not afford much opportunity for in-depth snowpack analysis, pit digging, etc (which are normally more emphasized parts of the hands-on curriculum). We did do lots of transceiver practice, as the conditions were more appropriate for that activity. The NAI also offers a level II course (at crystal mt) and a III course (around Mazama, WA). They describe the level III course as being a "guide's" course. In this course, they do practice using explosives to trigger avalanches (as you would in a heli-ski operation or ski resort). For more info, go to http://www.avalanche.org/~nai/ Hope that info is helpful.

I have a seet of doubles: Mammut 50 Meter 8.6 mm dry ropes I love them. In the mountains, I often just carry one in and double it up, having the leader tie in to both ends and having the second tie into an eight-on-a-bight at the halfway mark. So light! My friend just bought a set of PMI 8.1 mm doubles (which are, to my knowledge, the smallest millimeter rope available which passes the double-rope test as opposed to being a twin-rope set). They're dry and super-light. I don't know if my mammuts will lose their dryness as some other folks indicated happened to them. Once you start climbing on doubles, you'll probably be hooked. good luck

A few random thoughts for you: 1) Tendinitis, when not treated or otherwise dealt with, can become "tendinosis," which is the term physical therapists now use to refer to chronic tendinitis. I have it in my elbow right now. Bummer. 2) Other than ankle sprains and ripped skin (i.e. avulsions or "flappers"), I would say that the most common and prevalent -- and potentially dangerous -- backcountry injury takes place not climbing at all, but rather, COOKING. I know that sounds funny, but burns in the backcountry (either from direct contact with a hot stove or by spilling boiling water) can be very problematic to deal with in terms of pain, infection, and possible loss of mobility -- imagine trying to hike ten miles after pouring a pot of boiling water on your foot! I work with students in the wilderness and have come to recognize that for this population at least cooking can be the most dangerous part of their day (often because people take such care to be cautious when they perceive danger, like when they're climbing, but let their guard down when cooking). Hope that's useful info for you. ------------------