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One reason the Outer Space traverse rating may not have changed much is because it's a "benchmark" climb for the area isn't it? It's listed in the Beckey Guide description of ratings I believe. I don't know how this works in, but another factor could be the "wiring" factor, when you're talking about rating specific pitches. Once you've done a pitch a time or three, you usually work out the kinks and it's a lot easier. When this happens to a benchmark pitch like the Outer Space traverse a grader might not hold quite the high regard for "5.9" anymore. Then when he gets on a new pitch that is still somewhat unfamiliar, he might think, this is harder than O.S. so it must be 5.10.

OK, OK, they finally got to me. You other liberal haters will change your minds too...if you have the guts to watch this ad. I wish I lived in NC so I could vote for this guy. WMP QT

Yeah, Clinton did it

Will's got it! Gum works well. If you can, get the kind with xylitol (sorta hard to find, "Koolers" has main ingredient xylitol). Xylitol is currently considered some wonder ingredient by many in the dental community.

When you were climbing to failure on that circuit did you ever pop off and clunk yer noggin on the slab? Or perhaps land on a kid? So is just climbing to pump and perhaps pushing through as long as possible the basic premise then? Definitely simple, I just thought there might be another school of thought. And by "steep", for me, steep is vertical.

So what're the theories on training for climbing endurance? Seems like I hear different things. Doing sets of easy laps until failure seems like a no-brainer, but I've also heard that getting pumped too quickly while training is counterproductive, and that you should avoid the pump as long a possible. Anybody got scientifically-validated, currently-accepted, guidelines for what kind of training at the UW Rock is going to help me last longer on some steep Index climb? If not, then what works for you?

Well here I think you are talking about competition for finite resources among "my kind of climbing" and "their kind". I think if the gym climbers have a totally different idea of what is fun and good, then you'll probably not have a problem, because then we will not be competing for the same resources. For example, I don't give a shit really of what those guys do to places like Exit 38. The problems happen, paradoxically, when one tries to teach these guys the "true" way. They find they like some aspects like the great outdoors, but perhaps don't share other values. When "they" start trying to change stuff that "we" have long considered ours, that's when the problems begin. Then, Mattp's post starts really muddying the waters of "them" versus "us". Oh well.

I've found what little gym climbing I've done to be very good for training strength, endurance and balance, all things that translate well to trad climbing. Obviously, there're other aspects of trad climbing that can't be captured well in a gym setting, but it doesn't mean the gym is a waste of time. Sure, if it's a bright sunny 60 degree day at Index and you've got eight hours and a partner available, then surely Index would be a better choice to train for trad climbing than a gym (in fact, it'd actually be trad climbing!). However, if you've only got a couple of hours and/or it's nasty weather, then there are things you can do in the gym to prepare for the "real" climbing. Endurance and balance are definitely going to help, so bouldering or routes are equally good. I find though that well-defined routes help me more for endurance as if I get tired on a boulder problem I usually just jump off. Obviously though, you can force yourself to train the endurance while bouldering, but I've just had more luck at this while climbing (and downclimbing) routes. Another thing you can do to help a little bit is to lead routes in the gym. Just getting used to clipping while pumped, and working on finding a good stance before clipping, is useful. It isn't the full deal of wiggling in a stopper while looking at an ankle breaker, or pulling up the rope from some sketchy slab stance, but it does do a bit for you. So anyway, I'd say boulder or do routes. Work the endurance and balance, and lead stuff when you've got a partner there.

I find it interesting how one could get upset about this. Obviously, the gym-climbing thing is very different from what many of us enjoy about climbing. How does this defame climbing? Joseph, would you feel better if they just gave the gym-climbing/competition thing a different name? "Highpointing"? "Vert-racing"? If people want to exercise, if they want to "get kids off the streets" in the pursuit of an athletic endeavor, I'm all for that. So what if they call it "climbing" and the mindset in their sport is different from mine?

Here's a photo of it in Chris Jones "Climbing in North America" p 143. The caption indicates that the boulder was buried/destroyed, but it seems pretty obvious that this is the "Wedgewood Boulder" with that ramp up the sunny South side.

or rent

This link should get you started on what some of the different grades mean. The descriptions linked above describe how climbs are rated. When speaking of the rating of the climber, many times people refer to themselves as say, a 5.9 climber. Climb and climber ratings can be quite subjective, but usually it means for a climber that person is fairly comfortable/confident on most 5.9-rated climbs. However, this is not a universally accepted definition. Some folks might consider themselves 5.9 climbers once they've managed to reach the chains without hanging or otherwise "cheating" on a single 5.9 gym climb, while others don't consider someone a 5.9 climber until she can easily ascend just about any 5.9-rated climb, no falls and no previews. So how do you get your #? Go to the gym/crag/mountains. Climb some stuff. Find out what the ratings are, and label yourself accordingly. Then come back here and tell us what you decided, so we can judge you.

Though I could picture someone more evil (Cheney? Frist?) I doubt even the Republicans could put up someone that would come close to Bush's combined evil-incompetency score. So, unless Bush declares himself dictator for life (or perhaps "leader until this latest horrible terrorist threat dies down") I think at least our deficits will decline in 2008 no matter what the DNC does. However, I'm hoping the forces of reasonableness and competency can make a good enough showing in Congress in 2006 to maybe force the criminals out early.

What/where's the Old P?

Jeez Matt what do you want? A complete and total admission that their guy is the worst ever? KK just posted that Bush falls below Clinton. Now, considering the hyperbole these guys have been spewing about Clinton for years, I think this classifies as quite the admission. Don't you? And BTW...I think the line-item veto they're talking about now would be a good idea. It's limited to budget and taxation legislation, and each veto can be overriden via a simple majority. No more blaming the other side, or the "process". Total accountability. A bit scary with all branches controlled by the same party though. They should change it so that it can be overriden by a simple majority in either branch of congress (or just the House, since they all need to be reelected every two years).

Another little slice of totalitarianism Guy was ticketed by DHS for handing out anti-FEMA t-shirts

IIRC it was mostly smaller stuff (cams and nuts) in cracks (but I could be wrong, you might want to bring three #5's ). You can protect the first 20 feet or so (crux?) in the crack climb to the right (some 5.9). Unless you consider that cheating . The crack climb to the right is good too, but I don't remember the name.

Here's my recommendations: Some Vantage suggestions

Dru's right, you will want a car. I rented from "Fox" on the internet, but it was called something else down at the terminal (a bit confusing). There's pretty much two tiers, Fox being one in the lower tier and then Hertz, Avis, etc about twice as much. There's not many hidden fees if you make sure to ask when you rent. How long are you going to be there? Renting by the week is usually way cheaper/day. 1 week rate equals about 3-4 days at the day rate. Weekends are often cheaper too. I think the sales tax on Vegas rental cars is 25%! So there's a fee you're not going to be able to get around that you'll need to make sure to budget for.

Good segway back to the thread topic ... Lion's Jaw has to be one of the most overrated (in terms of quality) climbs I've ever done. Diedre is pretty overhyped too (but certainly kicks ass on Lion's Jaw). You didn't hear that from me though

Time to drudge this up after I had a couple of surprising Mexican Food experiences lately The Guyamas on Greenlake was surprisingly really good (I had the Chile Rellenos). Tasty. The waitress might've tried to rip us off though, had some stuff from a previous bill on our tab. Probably a mistake, but check your bill! Pretty pricey. I finally tried Agua Verde by the UW Med Center, and perhaps it was my high expectations, but I was not impressed. I got pork carnitas, beans and rice and all were quite flavorless. The marg was insipid. Plus the waiter had a bit of an attitude. Maybe it was a fluke, cause I always hear good stuff about that place. It was packed too! Maybe people like paying restaurant prices for a slanty table and bland food as long as it's "natural"? I ate at what used to be Pancho Villas (now called "Mr. Villa" ) on Lake City Way near 15th a couple of years back. It seemed pretty authentic Mexican.

Do you have a list of required gear for your course? That might help get people started here. If you want cheap, you might try a road trip to Canada (MEC in Vancouver?). Get some good prices on Wild Country stuff.

I think Choada Boy's explanation sounds reasonable. However, his strategy was flawed and the REI goons exploited it. Sounds like he framed his argument around the helmet being defective rather than REI's 100% satisfaction guarantee. Whether the helmet is defective is an arguable point, and the REI person used that. The 100% satisfaction pledge is not. Should have switched to that the minute they started weaseling. Next time I'd try, "I had my misgivings about the lightweight nature of this helmet, but I figured it was worth a try since REI has the 100% satisfaction guarantee. Well, it broke. I gave BD the benefit of the doubt and tried another one, and the second helmet broke too. So, now, I'm definitely not 100% satisfied. I'd like my money back." Or perhaps, more to the point, "I'm not 100% satisfied with this product. I'd like my money back."

I watched the last couple heats of "Snowboard Cross" last night. What are you guys talking about "Gladiators"?? They're not allowed to push or anything. If the potential to get unlucky/lucky by getting in/avoiding an unintentional pileup makes one like a gladiator, then I must have a different definition of the word. Anyway, it looked sorta fun, but not so much like a majestic olympic sport, rather like a skateboard park, arcade kinda thing. Definitely closer to curling than the men's/women's downhill.