Sport vs Trad

[RuMR]

Yes, trad. Same in Krabi, the only trad rack in the country at the time I suspect. Not really into the 'do as the Euros do' sort of thing, though I suspect the proliferation of via ferratas in this country has only just begun.

actually, i was thinking more along the lines of Ceuse, Verdon, or any of the other major limestone areas. I might suggest you go and try it...i suspect that you are ace on footwork and would enjoy some of the bolt-protected, technical climbing. it might change or soften some of your stances...plus, the food, women and ambiance rock...

 

cheers,

Rudy

[JosephH]

No equivalency? Via ferratas are simply someone moving the slider up slightly on the "I'm-entitled-to-have-someone-make-it-so-I-can-get-vertical" console from sport climbing. Time will tell on the proliferation.

 

If you really wanted a serious conversation around the realities of sport climbing you'd start with a guess of how new bolts (not retro- or re-) have gone in anually in the last five years and the next five years. I would be willing to bet that the total count of bolts sunk from 1949-79 get sunk in a month or two max these days.

[Off_White]

Really, this is an open question to Joseph, Raindawg, or Pope: where and when have sport climbers deprived you of the essential first ascent experience you crave, stolen from you the singular moment of discovery and uncertainty that a first ascent offers? Repeating a route, whether bolted on rappel or established ground up, is all the same experience: the route is rated, the protection is known, and the line is established.

 

After the first ascent, all routes are the same. In an intrinsic absolute sense, the Bacher-Yerian = R&D. It's a known quantity that anyone who chooses to climb the route knows what they're in for. All this pissing and moaning is over the direct experience of two people.

[Off_White]

No equivalency? Via ferratas are simply someone moving the slider up slightly on the "I'm entitled to have someone make it so I can get vertical" console from sport climbing. Time will tell on the proliferation.

 

Are you that thick? Sport climbers are not interested in making it easy, they're just making it possible. If they wanted it easy they'd make a via ferrata, instead they install protection for some of the hardest physical rock gymnastics ever accomplished. Go climb a via ferrata and a 5.13 sport climb and then swear that they are the same thing. I'll call you a liar, but then at least you'll have some feeble ground to claim equivalency.

 

I'll believe bolt protected face climbing and via ferrata are equivalent when any obese american can climb 5.13.

[JosephH]

Well, you have to take into account I'm a real throwback and have been anti-chalk, anti-bolt, anti-rating, and anti-guide all along. All of those contribute to what "is known" on lines. In fact the use and dependence on guidebooks has kept untold numbers of climbers from ever developing an eye and being able to directly map their capabilities to a line on sight. Chalk has always led to a climb-by-the-dot mentality - no shortage of Eldo locals BITD who wouldn't consider climbing anything without chalk on it and leaves nothing to the imagination relative to figuring out sequences. All in all it's entirely possible you and I climb for entirely differnet reasons.

[Off_White]

Joe, you're dissembling and obfuscating. There is no equivalency between via ferrata and bolt protected face climbing, and chalk or guidebooks have nothing to do with it.

 

I think we both climb because of the way it makes us feel, I doubt there's nearly as much difference as you suggest.

[JosephH]

I'd say you're the thick one. The mental exercise is exactly equivalent with the difficulty rating and skill set is all that changes. Thin folks on sport climbs, fat folks on via feratta - vertical movement and clipping [close to their limits] - I fail to see the difference.

 

And for most single pitch crags - clipping - how innane and pointless if "physical rock gymnastics" is what matters.

 

Again, the horse is long dead and we've both been climbing about the same time and come away with entirely different experiences - nothing about what you're saying here do I even vaguely agree with.

[Raindawg]

Really, this is an open question to Joseph, Raindawg, or Pope: where and when have sport climbers deprived you of the essential first ascent experience you crave, stolen from you the singular moment of discovery and uncertainty that a first ascent offers? Repeating a route, whether bolted on rappel or established ground up, is all the same experience: the route is rated, the protection is known, and the line is established.

 

After the first ascent, all routes are the same. In an intrinsic absolute sense, the Bacher-Yerian = R&D. It's a known quantity that anyone who chooses to climb the route knows what they're in for. All this pissing and moaning is over the direct experience of two people.

 

Off... Sport-climbers have demeaned the climbing experience by plastering the rock with artificial accessories rather than using bolts VERY sparingly or avoiding them all together if a route can be top-roped, etc. or better yet, just leaving it alone. So if I'm deprived of a "first ascent experience", it's because I'm appalled by the callous lack of restraint in bolting that has become the status quo.

By the way, the Bacher-Yerian route is an excellent example of restraint in bolt usage. I suppose they could have made a sport ladder out of much of it but they didn't.

 

Billcoe....I'm way busy....ain't got time for a rude pissing match right now so I'm spending my free three minutes responding to Off.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'd say you're the thick one.

 

Gotta side with Off on this one.

 

 

[JosephH]

K, Oh, hey, trust me, I understand you guys don't like the fact that folks on a via feratta are wearing a harness, clipping pre-placed protection, and climbing rocks - god knows it's a real leap of logic to sport climbing from that. Maybe going out the other end of the spectrum from "adventure climbing" we should call it "comfort climbing" - but climbing it is, at least if you use the definition of sport climbing as the criteria.

[Off_White]

Raindawg, you've brought up top roping before as a valid way to experience climbing over a face that does not present natural protection, and I think that's a really interesting subject.

 

Top roping has never been given any creedence in the climbing world, and I agree that the difference between top roping something and relentlessly wiring something so you can red point it is pretty negligible. Maybe Dick Cilley will chime in here, he's been denigrated by others as "the worlds best top roper" and has certainly experienced as much disdain the climbing community will dump on someone for top roping as anyone I personally know. I agree that top rope routes should merit recognition and respect, and in the one pitch cragging world they make a lot of sense.

 

I clip them, but I'll freely admit that bolts are not lovely (unless you're 30' out). Respect for top rope ascents would be a really positive thing for the sport in general, I wish I knew how to make that happen.

 

I like you Dawg, it's nice to have something to agree upon.

 

That said, even with reasonable bolt protection, I find that I climb with more focus when I'm on the lead than when I'm top roping. Okay, so I'm only going 20', even that is enough to sharpen absolutely every aspect of human perception. I've got some 5.10 bolt protected climbs on my private crag that are totally different experiences on top rope than they are on lead, and plenty of 5.11's that play out the same way. Lisa is psyching up to make the 5th redpoint of Legends (5.12c) and I absolutely feel the drama of that, even though its a route I'll never be good enough to climb. The feeling of having the rope run up from you is really different than when the rope runs down, and anyone who says different is not paying attention.

[Off_White]

Joe, the K Man doesn't lump into anyone's definition of "sport climbers." He's an old school alpinist whose adventures you'd be 100% behind, so you can't dismiss him as being the same as a climbing slut like myself who will take whatever comes.

 

If you think climbing 5.13 is the same as climbing a ladder, you're a total loon and no more worth talking to than Josh Lewis. In fact, I think you should take Josh out and show him the ropes, it can't be any worse than what he's up to on his own.

[JosephH]

I wish I knew how to make that happen.

 

Well, back in bumfuck there some TR routes that command enough respect that folks have tried various means of pre-placing pro in them to lead them so they wouldn't have to step up to the TR.

[Off_White]

Hey Dawg, I just had an idea. Have you ever climbed at exit 38? Isn't that considered the most execrable example of sport climbing in Washington? I've never climbed there myself, and have only been to Little Si maybe twice. What do you say you and I make a trip to check out the devil's sidewalk and post our separate trip reports? We might have really different experiences, but I'll be it will be entertaining both for us and anyone reading here!

[Off_White]

I wish I knew how to make that happen.

 

Well, back in bumfuck there some TR routes that command enough respect that folks have tried various means of pre-placing pro in them to lead them so they wouldn't have to step up to the TR.

 

Pfft, there are always exceptions to the rule, and big roofs are an example. Come to Tenino and you'll eat your words.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Hey Dawg, I just had an idea. Have you ever climbed at exit 38? Isn't that considered the most execrable example of sport climbing in Washington? I've never climbed there myself, and have only been to Little Si maybe twice. What do you say you and I make a trip to check out the devil's sidewalk and post our separate trip reports? We might have really different experiences, but I'll be it will be entertaining both for us and anyone reading here!

 

it's not a bad place to get some climbing in mid-week. kind of hard to make it out and do alpine trad after work... but if you got 3 hours to spare on a Wednesday evening...

[Off_White]

Wednesdays? I never have time to spare on Wednesdays, that's the happening day I'm pretty much guaranteed to have partners at the 2 minute foot commute!

 

 

In fact, this route, Shaking Hands With The Govenor (5.10b) is a classic example of the difference between toproping and leading. Ya'll are invited to come on down and check it out.

 

(thanks K, this thread really needed a picture)

 

 

[Kimmo]

Well, you have to take into account I'm a real throwback and have been anti-chalk, anti-bolt, anti-rating, and anti-guide all along. All of those contribute to what "is known" on lines.

 

i seem to be one of the few of what one might call sportos here who can at least sense where joe is coming from, and from that place, i would say climbing is dead. it isn't adventure in that sense anymore. it's a very different experience for most people, i'd say, but i doubt it was the way joe sees it for the majority even in his heyday. even so, i have great sympathy of sorts for what i see as the death of his vision. perhaps he can simply dose before climbing?

 

do you really climb without chalk?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

perhaps he can simply dose before climbing?

 

[Pilchuck71]

 

 

PS: horse died in 1982

 

:lmao:

[Pilchuck71]

 

Did you steal this from Josh L?

 

This is the best post in this thread!

[Kimmo]

you're a total loon and no more worth talking to than Josh Lewis.

 

whatsup? he's an eager 16 year old kid, right? kinda cold, methinks.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you're a total loon and no more worth talking to than Josh Lewis.

 

whatsup? he's an eager 16 year old kid, right? kinda cold, methinks.

 

yeah, and Dariusiasiusias was cool too...

 

[Off_White]

Kimmo, I don't think that kind of climbing is dead, its just not spewed about on the internet. There's a lot of wild adventure climbing first ascents out there in the world still, its just not in the old familiar places. Hell, look at John Frieh's FA on Burkett Needle, does 5.7 get any more out there than that? Even in the cragging world, I bet there are still lots of places to go to have an unscripted adventure on whatever you want, and you don't even have to go far afield, I wager you can find it in the Castle Crags of Northern California or Hells Canyon on the Idaho/Oregon border. Eastern Washington is full of secrets so closely held they might as well be new discoveries for whoever finds them.

 

The issue is not that that sort of climbing is dead, its that an individual's willingness to toss all to the winds and pursue it has passed.

[Kimmo]

not a matter of him being "cool" or not, regardless of who you are referring to....