Moving quickly on winter alpine terrain

[keenwesh]

Hey folks, I thought this might provide some interesting and useful discussion.

 

I've found that when climbing grovely winter alpine terrain (think stuff that would be dirty 5.5 or 5.6 in summer) each pitch takes around 45 minutes to lead, and following is also time consuming, leading to the total time per pitch to take in the 1-2 hour range. I find that when I'm climbing this kind of terrain I'm not dawdling much, I get my turf sticks and commit to them, I'm not overprotecting anything.

 

Yesterday I spent 5 hours climbing 4 pitches (each 200+ feet long) on the North Face of the Grand Teton and bailed from the base of the Guano Chimney, I would grade those pitches scrappy ~M4ish R/X, not hard at all, but sustained at the grade and falling is totally out of the question. In summer I would have soloed to that point in under half an hour. I guess my question is can anyone climb that kind of terrain in the half hour per pitch range? If so, what are they doing that I'm not?

 

I'm thinking now that it's pretty much impossible to climb stuff like that much faster, and in order to climb routes like that in winter conditions you just have to commit to spending 15 hours on route (or however long it takes). If someone has evidence to suggest otherwise I'm all ears!

 

This kind of terrain, if you happen to be a visual learner (that's Colin Simon's ass)

[keenwesh]

Another example, last winter I climbed Big Mac Couloir on McHenrey's Peak in RMNP (not living in Washington leads to being part of climbing circles in Colorado) and that route took us something like 8 hours for 1200 feet. The most time consuming parts were all sustained but moderate mixed terrain. 2 months later I climbed several 3k-4k routes in AK in a similar amount of time. I REALLY want to get faster on routes like that because it would open up so much stuff closer to home here in the Rockies!

[mthorman]

I am in the same boat. I think a lot of it just has to do with experience. Being able to route find quickly and then seeing placements for gear. I know I have spent way too much time fiddling around trying to figure out where to get a piece. I know for me with more time mixed climbing, I would also see tool placements quicker.

 

Your times are pretty similar to mine. For instance, last spring I climbed the Stuart Glacier Couloir in very winter like conditions. The West Ridge section was 5 pitches of mixed climbing, in the M3/M4 ish range. It took us 4 hours for the 5 pitches swinging leads. In comparison two weeks ago I climbed TC on Dragontail and did it in just over 4 hours from the lake to the summit (3K elevation gain). But we only pitched out 2 pitches, and other than that it was just steep snow soloing.

 

I feel like my anchor building is fast, and my efficiency is good at switching leads. I just feel like I need to put in a ton more milage in the alpine and mixed terrain.

 

Why do you feel like following is time consuming? Retrieving gear should be pretty easy unless it is a pin and even those don't take that long to get out.

[keenwesh]

The nature of the climbing itself is insecure, crampons skating on slabs, tools slotted into thin cracks (on lead I'm swinging/hammering my tools into those). Even when following you can't really rage up that kind of terrain. Timing my buddies (we were climbing as a team of 3) my buddy with actual mixed climbing experience took around 15-20 minutes to follow a 200 ft pitch, whereas my other friend (who was climbing his first mixed pitches ever, found that out at the top of pitch 3) was more in the 20-30 minute range. We were leading in blocks and have our changeovers really dialed (I've climbed with Colin a ton, and that's something we really focus on) No issues pulling/placing gear, but when you're 30 feet above your last gear swinging into 2 inches of frozen moss you just can't move that quickly. I climb quite a bit of this terrain as well, both with and without a rope. I've definitely become faster, but have reached a sort of plateau.

 

Meh, it sure is more rewarding and engaging than the actual difficulty would suggest. It's just disheartening when you can solo something like TC in 1/5th the time.

[sportnoob]

Humblebrag

[keenwesh]

Probably trolling, but I'll bite. Every alpine route that I've ever climbed has been done far faster and in better style by many other folks. Hell, Alex soloed the North Face of the Grand in 20 hours C2C back in December 1992 when I was just a couple months old and shitting in diapers. I am not rad, I just aspire to be.

[G-spotter]

The nature of the climbing itself is insecure, crampons skating on slabs, tools slotted into thin cracks (on lead I'm swinging/hammering my tools into those). Even when following you can't really rage up that kind of terrain. Timing my buddies (we were climbing as a team of 3) my buddy with actual mixed climbing experience took around 15-20 minutes to follow a 200 ft pitch, whereas my other friend (who was climbing his first mixed pitches ever, found that out at the top of pitch 3) was more in the 20-30 minute range. We were leading in blocks and have our changeovers really dialed (I've climbed with Colin a ton, and that's something we really focus on) No issues pulling/placing gear, but when you're 30 feet above your last gear swinging into 2 inches of frozen moss you just can't move that quickly.

 

I assure you when you watch Ueli racing up the Eiger with his crampon points skating around on mixed terrain he's not taking 20 minutes to go 200 feet. Ergo, it would seem maybe you should focus less on security in order to go faster.

 

In my experience the climbing goes fast enough, what slows things down is working for gear in terrain where the cracks are irregular seams or behind loose blocks rather than in splitter granite. Especially anchors. Instead of three cams two feet apart in a solid parallel crack for an anchor like on a rock route you might have one pin at waist height, one nut six feet above your head, and a TriCam in a pod six feet left.

[keenwesh]

I did Birdbrain Boulevard down in Ouray a few months back and it took us like 3 hours up swinging leads. I've heard it referred to as like the Eiger, but a sixth the size, I doubt the accuracy of that statement. Most of it isn't very sustained, so for a 70 meter pitch there's maybe 20 meters of actual M4 climbing, the rest is just snow. Upper pitches are more sustained, but they're chimneys, so really secure and the lack of pro isn't really a factor. In the alpine I generally throw in a couple pieces and find a stance that I can wedge myself into if the anchor does blow, because generally the anchors aren't very bomber and it's a lot faster. I think carrying a small hammer to wail in pins would speed things up and increase security, as pounding pins with nomics sucks and you can't drive them home in the same way.

[montypiton]

I have to admit, when it came to the point where I really NEEDED to climb this stuff faster than maybe an hour per pitch or so, I found I learned to Really Enjoy Bivouacs! Never did get fast, but got more comfortable... these days the major challenge is to convince my younger/stronger ropegun that an unplanned/exposed bivvy is not a Bad Thing...

-Haireball

[Buckaroo]

I think carrying a small hammer to wail in pins would speed things up and increase security, as pounding pins with nomics sucks and you can't drive them home in the same way.

 

I think using Nomics on anything less than WI4 is overkill. Something with a straighter shaft and no pinky rest is also better for bashing pins and plunging.

[telemarker]

these days the major challenge is to convince my younger/stronger ropegun that an unplanned/exposed bivvy is not a Bad Thing...

-Haireball

 

I'm really biting my tongue here Curt. I think your "younger/stronger" partners would beg to differ with your mindset on this one.

[keenwesh]

I think using Nomics on anything less than WI4 is overkill. Something with a straighter shaft and no pinky rest is also better for bashing pins and plunging.

 

The best tool is the one you've used the most. I've been climbing on Nomics for 4 seasons now and therefore use them for everything. If I could afford it though I'd get a set of quantum techs for alpine terrain. Still, I wouldn't say nomics are overkill, sure you can get by with a straighter shafted tool, but unless you've been climbing on that tool for 3 months it's going to perform much worse.

 

And Kurt, I'd rather climb for 30 hours straight than endure an unplanned bivi. If you can stay fueled and keep moving upwards you're going to be warmer/more comfortable than shivering sleeplessly on a frozen ledge!

[dberdinka]

Marc Lederc just dry tooled the northeast buttress of Slesse in 5 hours so clearly people can move quicker. Apparently it's the rope slowing you down.

 

If you're willing to climb for 30 hours straight why did you bail?

[keenwesh]

Yeah, he did it faster with 'pons and tools than in approach shoes. I think all that time in patagonia might have something to do with it

 

Bailing meant getting to spend the night in a warm bed with a girl, whereas continuing meant topping out at 2 am, and shivering in between 2 hairy dudes until the sun came up and we figured out where we were. I do feel soft though so I'm thinking about going back next week.

[DPS]

Bailing meant getting to spend the night in a warm bed with a girl, whereas continuing meant topping out at 2 am, and shivering in between 2 hairy dudes until the sun came up and we figured out where we were.

 

You will be able to spend every night in a warm bed with a girl for the rest of your life after you get married. Do the unplanned bivis now, while you still have the chance.

[G-spotter]

Yeah, he did it faster with 'pons and tools than in approach shoes.

 

he did it in an hour and a half in his approach shoes once?

 

sounds like winter is just slower to me

[Pete_H]

Move back to Washington and climb in the Cascades you'll get much better at climbing mid fifth class choss.

[ivan]

Bailing meant getting to spend the night in a warm bed with a girl, whereas continuing meant topping out at 2 am, and shivering in between 2 hairy dudes until the sun came up and we figured out where we were.

 

You will be able to spend every night in a warm bed with a girl for the rest of your life after you get married. Do the unplanned bivis now, while you still have the chance.

dunno, after seeing what i assume is said lady this past summer, i think the lad might be guilty of little more than common sense

[marc_leclerc]

1 hr 15 in approach shoes, stopping to chat with people, mellow.

 

5hrs drytooling in winter, kinda full on.

 

Winter is just generally scarier and slower. Like Dru said.

 

 

[montypiton]

of course they beg to differ, John! that's why its so hard to convince them that it can be FUN. I don't expect everyone to agree or like it, but the fact is I ENJOY nights in exposed situations. That doesn't mean anyone else has to, or should. I do have more fun with partners who do...

[keenwesh]

1 hr 15 in approach shoes, stopping to chat with people, mellow.

 

5hrs drytooling in winter, kinda full on.

 

Winter is just generally scarier and slower. Like Dru said.

 

 

I totally misread what you wrote me earlier. My bad. That makes (a lot) more sense.