David_Parker Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 I'm with Eric. It's total BS that the officer wouldn't give his name or ID. What does he have to hide? Well I'll tell you. Maybe he's a poser. He sure was an asshole. With an attitude like that he should be a Seattle cop and take care of real crime, not a ranger harrasing the general public and singling out climbers for victimless crime. I've met a lot af rangers in my day because whenever I see one I go out of my way to talk to them. Most are cool and are out there because they love the wilderness too. I have to think they too think this fee shit is BS and would admit it "off the record". Ticketing the 2 guys in the van waiting for us was wrong. In fact I will say it was dicrimination against climbers. If Aunt Sally and Uncle Dick from Spokane on vacation in Leavenworth were sitting in their Lincoln Town Car waiting to meet someone, I don't think Larry would give them a ticket. These guys did not enter the wilderness and therefore didn't really "use" the parking lot. From what I can tell from the Arizona case, you have to park your car AND use the wilderness to go into the realm where you need a pass. If you don't have a pass, then the officer needs to prove you were in the wilderness (for non-religeous purposes) AND (not or) the car in the parking lot is uneqivocally yours. I can also say that while Larry harassed John about is "alledged" invalid pass, John was as polite as anyone could possibly be. He did not raise his voice or express anger. Larry came at him with vinegar and John stuck with the honey. Larry seems to be on a crusade and quite possibly this is not representative of what higher authorities in the Forest Service want. Larry harrassed climbers and harassment in any way, shape or form is unacceptable. I too will file a complaint. Eric, I need the beta on where to send it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 David I remember thinking the same thing about this dude zeroing in on climbers too. I think you have a good point there and that it may be possible he needs to focus on other things at times. Just think: How did he get all the money for that bad ass stinking vehicle. Did you see all the video cams and stuff? Maybe he should be ticketing poachers or someone fishing without a license etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Were you guys getting nailed bu the Good Ranger about 7:30 or so on Sunday night? And the 2 guys in a van with what looked like the Treehouse logo on it? If so, shit, we just missed getting nailed for not having a permit. We were obviously not carrying daypacks and hauled our sorry, dragging asses right by you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcollins Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 FYI. A couple of weeks ago I did Snow Creek Wall with a bivi at the base prior to. I wrote a note and put it on my dashboard. I simply stated that my car was part of a car pool to another area and I wasn't using this trail and that no permit was necessary. For my trouble I recieved an application for a permit but no ticket. I declare a jeehad!!! ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I have no idea what you who received tickets may want to do about them, but after a conversation with Dr. Jay, I have taken it upon myself to try to get some information which may be of help. I telephoned the Wenatchee Forest Service office and learned that Officer Inthout is the law enforcement officer who works out of the Leavenworth office, and that his supervisor is Roger Fusen, who works in Wenatchee. I left a message requesting a call back from Mr. Fusen, and I intend to ask him for a copy of any incident reports that may have been filed in connection with Sunday night's ticketing. I believe this information should be public information. Should you want a copy of anything that I receive, send me an email. mattp@seanet.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Officer Inthout's supervisor is Roger Fuson. He said he would not send me anything about this incident or respond in any substantive way unless one of you guys wants to request a hearing before the U.S. Magistrate in Yakima, and you or your attorney could then request such things as an incident report and it sounds as if the officer has a videotape as well. Fuson said that I, as a private citizen, have no right to ask for anything. To request a hearing and then ask for the evidence they have against you, contact: US Attorney - Eastern WA Post Office Box 1494 920 W. Riverside Spokane, WA 99201 Phone: (509) 353-2767 Fax: (509) 353-2766 If any of you guys think that Officer Inthout was truly out of line, I believe you absolutely should complain about him Fuson said that if anybody wants to complain about the incident they should send him a letter. He said he would then review such a letter with Officer Inthout, and review the videotape (apparently the patrol car has a camera running all the time), and he would respond "as appropriate." To complain about the conduct of officer Larry Inthout, send a letter to: Special Agent Roger Fuson Region Six LEI Wenatchee, National Forest 215 Melody Lane Wenatchee, WA 98801 (509) 662 4335 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I received a call from the US Attorney's office and was told that the ticket for failure to have the permit is a "collateral forfeiture" ticket, where you pay the fine and you don't have to go to court, but a notice of infraction for giving a false name may be one that has a mandatory court appearance. Read your ticket carefully, and be sure to respond as indicated. Either way, it seems, you can contact the U.S. Attorney's office and they will be listen to your side of the story and they may be able to reduce the penalty or negotiate some payment plan or whatever. They will also provide copies of any evidence. If you do not resolve it through this kind of contact, your first court hearing would possibly be in November, but more likely January. You would go once to plead "not guilty" and you would go a second time for a trial. If you are found guilty, you will end up with a misdemeanor on your record whereas if you simply pay the fine on one of those "collateral forfeiture" tickets, you won't end up with any criminal record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 An experienced criminal law attorney who practices in Yakima tells me that the Magistrate, Lonnie Sukko (I may have misspelled his name) is likely to be very polite and conduct a very impressive hearing but it is "very difficult" to get a not guilty finding from Mr. Sukko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 quote: Originally posted by mattp: I believe this information should be public information. Should you want a copy of anything that I receive, send me an email. Matt- Could you post/transcribe/quote/paraphrase the information here for all to benefit from? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 I made a new post which is now down the list called "court cases relevant to fee demo" You should read the articles from the Arizona Daily Sun (click on the links). From what I can tell, ol Larry had no right giving the guys in the van a ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I for one feel that these battles are very worth fighting, but it seems to me that the system itself is set up to pre-dispose people to confess guilt, not out of "coming clean," but out of convenience. I live about 4-5 hours from Yakima, and 4 hours from Leavenworth, in Eastern Washington. Were I to get such ticket, it would be very hard to get off work, travel the requisite distance to court (twice or more?), perhaps have to camp or stay in some hotel somewhere, all to possibly lose the case anyway. Perhaps spending more money in the process of fighting the ticket than if I paid it to begin with? My point: I hope you fellows fight the good fight here -- and I truly admire and support you if you do -- but does anyone else out there feel that the system itself predisposes people to just pay tickets rather than fight them? "That government is best which governs least" -- Henry David Thoreau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I don't know what that arrow is for but, I havent used it yet Seems to me, you guys have 2 issues here kind of rolled into one fat stinking mess. 1. Butt headed, pompus, swat team wanabee ranger dude in a position of power who chooses to abuse it while enforcing laws. 2. Being upset about having to pay again to park in a parking lot and hike on trails we paid for already (if you pay income tax) . on #1 I have encountered guys like that who are judges, attourneys, contractors, workers, cops and rangers. It sucks but it is a fact of life that you will have to deal with one eventually. I applaud your efforts to fight to get this punk in some sort of trouble, I sounds like he is a consistent abuser. on #2, I buy the damn parking permit so I don't end up having to pay the $150 fee. I think there are enough taxes to pay for this stuff but don't care to get into that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 mattp, First let me say thank you for all the work you have done to round up info. This all started with my trail park pass (which I didn't want to buy but I felt I little choice when taking clients to the trail head in my truck). I'm currently in the proccess of writing my complaint and the info you have provided saved me some run around. Dr. J I'm sorry that you ended up with the ticket. If I can be of any help let me know. Dave don't worry about taking off. I would have done the same in your shoes. This event has left me with alot of anger and as I told my friend about it I would offten conclude by saying that I wanted officer dickhead to loose his badge and his children to starve. Well I don't think these thing will acure but I'm not going to stop being a thorne in the side of the system. p.s. I'm not parking in that parking lot ever again. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marek Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Beck: Hey, Cavey, not the SPD here in Seattle now, they've taken to flaunting this in light of the WTO demonstrations, they were observed at a WTO anniversary march with badge numbers and nametags "convienently" hidden under retroflective vests or other equipment, enough so that there are suits against the SPD at this time. Refusing to identify oneself as an officer of the peace may becomming more standard operating procedure in more jurisdictions, probably on an individual basis- if a LEO is an asshole to citizens, maybe he's got more personal reasons to not to identify themselves. Sorry to all the bros that got harrassed, this truly sounds lame. Not to fan the fires of dissent but I personally believe in paying the 25 bucks a year- call me a toe the line citizen, but if the Gov says pay to play, the only rational recourse is to pay to play- they tell us how much tax we pay, it is a bummer but that's America for you- I know the timber. gas and ranchers are subsidized in the wilderness and we are not, but look at the disastarous effects a group of citizens had on Washington States budget when Tim Eyman's little "free lunch" initives got passed by the citiznry- they said, no car tabs, look what an imbroglio our state's ferries, roads, etc have become- I guess there's no money to fund highways and roads this year and the legislature doesn't go back to session until January- I know the Forest recreation parking pass fund doesn't help climbers much but at the same time 25 does not equal 150 - sorry to hear about all the hassles at the SC parking lot, dudes!! ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marek Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 i think sexsual chocolate is right on the money!we should focus on mr,in-shit ranger and systematicly try to get rid of him,i think this is the same ass! that wrote a ticket to one of my climbing buddies.my friend went to court and WON!! just because in-shit ranger missspelled his name! (by the way his name is krzysztof koziarz) i do not mind paying a fee for something,but not this B.S. with day pass.REMEMBER! SYSTEMATICLY,COLD,IN FACE that,s how we got rid of communists in POLAND and surly one stinking,overzelous,lazy ranger will be a small beer for us! quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: Register your complaints at the ranger station! Serious. He's OUR employee, if'n ya know what I mean. Public servant. Just make your complaints respectful and intelligent, so they have the most impact. And don't forget to call and write and email the politicians about the wilderness fee extensions. No renewal. No pay to play. No fees for using our own land! Public lands=no user fees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 14, 2001 Share Posted October 14, 2001 How to get around this kind of thing? In addition to parking on the road, you can make one-day and even extended trips into the Enchantments without a permit provided you take the advice of a Leavenworth friend of mine (BTW, I'm not promoting ANY of these practices): 1. Go in and out in the dark. FS rangers don't typically operate in the dark, so your chances of an encounter are vanishingly small. 2. Have a big guy in the party. Nothing works like intimidation. Also, if you bump into a ranger on the trail, just keep walking. 3. Carry duct tape. This can be useful when Ranger Rick reaches for the radio. Just give him a wedgy and tape him to a tree. But seriously, if you're just day-tripping to SCW, park on the road and fill out a day pass at the trailhead. It's astonishingly simple. Not so long ago, we had had to visit the FS station in town just to get a day pass, and they didn't exactly open at 5 am to accomodate alpine starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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