Highlander Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 (edited) the chute is packed and ready for terminal velocity Anybody know the best way to approach the route? Edited January 9, 2003 by Highlander Quote
forrest_m Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 (edited) Dwayner - I am not trying to slag you, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that I'm ready to run out and do the route tomorrow. But I think there is a big difference between saying that a route is "not for me" and saying that it is a "death route" Slapping the DR label on it sounds to me like what you mean is "I'm not doing it and anyone who does is just stupid." What is a "death route" anyway? A route people have died on? Well, probably not, we don't consider the W. Face of Guye peak or the S. Face of the Tooth to be "death routes" Ok, so is it a route that people could die on? Not that either, because that includes just about everything in this sport. A more serious definition might be routes that have very high objective hazard. Willis Wall anyone? But even very dangerous routes can be safe under certain conditions, or can be made much safer by someone moving very fast. In this regard, I guess I could be persuaded to use the phrase as a descriptor but not to consider it an attribute of the route itself. For example, I might say "Thermogenesis is a death route under anything but very sustained cold conditions" I guess the only kind of route that I feel really deserves the title of Death Route are things like those Jim Beyer aid lines with body-weight-only anchors, and the like. Even under these circumstances, I think it's usually a pretty personal thing: the N. Face of the N. Twin would be a death route for me, because unlike George Lowe, I don't have the skills and experience to adequately protect a route like that. But I don't think that Lowe was suicidal to do it - he just had his shit really really together. Getting back to EDM, my point is that I don't think it qualifies as a "death route" by any of these definitions, and I think that it is a kind of fearmongering to call it one. Obviously it is a very serious route that should only be attempted by very competent parties. But do we really need to call it a death route to make that point? (As for relevance, I guess you're right, I should have just said "dood, you're talking out your ass" ) Edited January 9, 2003 by forrest_m Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 Read the polls guys. I dont think anyone's dubbed it death route. But then again nobody's climbed it that participated in the poll either. Quote
Alex Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 Dwyaner, you talk as if you know/represent the climbing community in general by making such blanket statements as "not many people are lining up for this route..", but fact is, you dont/dont. (Neither do I.) The only thing, therefore, that can be taken away from your three posts now on this topic are "this route isnt for me". As far as EDM, this route has been tried by myself and many of my friends and many of their friends during various winters over many years now. Though I know none of my immediate friends have succeeded, I am not convinced the route has not been repeated, knowing how easy it is to approach and assess conditions on the Index peaks. The route itself is mostly a moderate snow climb with some technical sections up high, which aren't much different than you can expect on any similar routes in the Cascades. Forest is right in one regard, if Index were in the Banff, it would rival the other well-known quartzite peaks for solid rock. Its all relative though, and relative to the town walls, yes, its not that solid. My parachute is packed! When do we leave? Alex Quote
Marko Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 That'd be GEORGE Lowe on the North Twin, eh? Quote
forrest_m Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 oh crap, you're right, of course. typing too fast, not thinking enough. Quote
Dwayner Posted January 9, 2003 Posted January 9, 2003 Mr. Alex, he say: "Dwyaner, you talk as if you know/represent the climbing community in general by making such blanket statements as "not many people are lining up for this route..", but fact is, you dont/dont. (Neither do I.)" Dude...where do you come up with this stuff? I only represent MY OWN opinion, as I stated above. You may have absolutely no respect for me, but a few others might. I think it's a dangerous route. So what. Take it or leave it. I can express my opinion....what a country! It's obviously not a Cascade classics because as you, yourself state: "this route has been tried by myself and many of my friends and many of their friends during various winters over many years now." And as far as you know, none of them has gotten up it. I would be delighted to be proven wrong. No, this isn't a personal challenge from me to you, but if it happens, I'm sure we'll all enjoy hearing about it. By the way, Forrest-guy: a little fear-mongering ain't bad; it might keep some people out of trouble. I personally think Jim Nelson is one cool cat but I don't know why a route like that would be thrown in with all of those moderate climbs. (Maybe it was a special tribute to his friend Eve.) I've met some guys out to do all of Nelson's selections and that's a worthy goal. But EDM is really a different story than the others listed. Do it if you want and I hope you have a safe and fun time. good luck. - Dwayner Quote
allthumbs Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 Mt Index They say this is where the hard Cascade mountaineers gather. Names like Callis, Schoening, Klewin, Bebie, Gordon, Beckey, Nelson and a host of other Cascade legends abound on this peak. Occasionally you actually meet someone mortal that's climbed something-ANYTHING here, but it's pretty rare. I think that gash down the middle of the mountain has a name. It's probably been climbed too. Probably by Jim Nelson in his Levi's or Fred Beckey in World War 2 era GI surplus combat boots. I, on the other hand can't buy enough high tech gear to convince myself that I am worthy. Sigh.... When I drive past I tend to stare straight ahead preferring to pretend it's not there. I mean if it doesn't exist then I don't have to worry about it right? But, I know it's there anyway...I'm just too stubbornly scared to admit it. Mike Adamson Quote
Peter_Puget Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 I forget exactly when the Nelson/Potterfield book came out but I am pretty confident that since it was published, there has not been more than one (and I doubt even one but am hedging my bets) really cold winter. In perfect conditions it might be a great climb but since those conditions are pretty rare I agree with Dwayner that the designation as classic is not right. I am wondering what will happen if we ever get a really cold snap. I am certain the upper wall waterfall will be climbed and perhaps even collapse on someone. The North Face of Persis will doubtless see some ascents. Faces everywhere will be climbed. After these routes are thrown into the mix I wonder if EDMR will still be considered an occasional classic. The increase in winter climber participation is amazing as are the improvements that have been made in equipment. One thing that hasn't changed is the stability of the NW weather. My guess is many who think themselves "experienced" will make some very bad decisions when the next real cold snap arrives. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 Re-I think that gash down the middle of the mountain has a name. It's probably been climbed too. ******************************** What is that? Part of the Doug Klewin Dan McNerthy route? It looks intense! They are not schoolchildren.... Quote
allthumbs Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 Fuck if I know Cptn., ask Mike. That is one nasty lookin' sumbeotch though ain't it? Quote
eric8 Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 Dwayner and Peter Nelsons books are called SELECTED climbs not classic climbs. The EDM may not be a classic climb but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in his book. He mentions in the preface or somewhere else that he has climbs for all ranges of abilities. So the EDM is a selected climb to challenge those with the capabilities to tackle the route. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 RE-I am wondering what will happen if we ever get a really cold snap. ********************************************** We get it. The year Drury Falls was climbed like 5 times at least sounded like a good example. I remember thinking "I am major bumgy don't event think about it" that season. There was time when we had good cold spells for it..... ********************************************* My guess is many who think themselves "experienced" will make some very bad decisions when the next real cold snap arrives. ***************************************************************************************************************************** "Experienced" is a relative term. When you walk up to that thing in winter it deserves attention, willingness, experience, common sense and motivation. Someone will send it. It just takes many formulas to match up. To imply that mass people will attempt it and get killed or hurt is a possible reality as with any route. But to thwart it like it will never happen is ridiculous and silly. There will always be people that attempt routes they are not qualified on. That's not necessarily any one person's fault. I think it's great the route is in the book. I think it's even greater that I can think of the day when someone tells us\me how it was. It may very well be a classic and you don't know it. Jim makes excellent books and thought they may have errors what book does not? For instance thousands will inevitably climb rated r\x routes of rock all year long. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 Eric - thanks for the "selected" correction. I would make only slight modifications to my posting based on it. I was not making any comment regarding the routes difficulty,however, I would not doubt that given the right conditions many posters here could climb it. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 My bet is that someone like colin or those 2 dudes I saw up at Edlo a few months back will climb it. Not necessarily any one of them but they are capable............. Quote
eric8 Posted January 10, 2003 Posted January 10, 2003 just wondering what elevation is index at? not the summit. the elevation of the town or the base of the route. somewhere around 1500ft? Quote
pms Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Interesting for me to hear what you think about this climb. Both Mark Bebie and I thought it was super classic. Mark even compared it to the North Face Direct on Les Droites. Maybe Peter and I shouldn’t have included it in our book, but we wanted others to know about it. Matt is right that we wanted climbers to remember Eve Dearborn also. Now that many climbers know about the route, we will probably take it out of future editions. Try and present climbs that are in more folks range, not to mention the condition factor. Another climb that I didn’t expect to see much interest in was the NW (Cauthorn-Pilling) route on Eldorado in Vol. II. Also conditional, but then conditions were good this Dec. and crowds arrived and confirmed that it was a worthy find. The more I climb, the more I realize how unpredictable and variable conditions around here are. I know with global warming conditions are in fact going up. However, I also know when I was on the North Face of Index, North Peak last winter; conditions were outstanding as I expect they were on the Eve Dearborn route as well. I hope everyone gets out this weekend, and as always be safe and have fun. Quote
Skisports Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 PMS, do you know if this route has seen a seconded accent? Dave Quote
Lambone Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 (edited) I know with global warming conditions are in fact going up. What do you meen by that Jim? Also, I'd leave the EDM route in further editions of Selected I. I think it adds to the character of the book, and it inspires me to get off my ass. Edited January 11, 2003 by Lambone Quote
pms Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 "I know with global warming conditions are in fact going up. " oops, I meant temperatures are going up, not conditions. Does the gear help with conditions? Quote
pms Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 "do you know if this route has seen a seconded accent?" I'm not saying there hasn't been some, but I don't know of any. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 PMS - I am sure EDMR is as good as you say. Before Eric's comments I was caught up in the classic mode and to me a route that has only one (known) ascent and comes into condition very infrequently doesn't qualify as a classic. I went back a looked at my dog eared copy of the select guide and agree with those that would encourage you to keep it in. I am glad to see that you seem to agree that the NW hasn't had as many cold spells as it did just a few years ago. I know if we had just a few years of really cold winters you'll have to come out with a new book full of winter routes and a second volume will have to be added to the Washington Ice book. PP Quote
dave Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 A route should not have to be easy or done by everyone and their brothers and sisters in order to be "classic". Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 Re-A route should not have to be easy or done by everyone and their brothers and sisters in order to be "classic". ***************************************** I agree with those comments 100%. Myself I climb easy routes. Consider this- I think Jim has climbed a lot of routes. Wouldn't he know better than many others how to identify a classic route? Rhetorical... Quote
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