Seattle Times Rainier Guiding Article

[jon]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134604785_rainierguides29m.html

 

Small article on the front page of the Times today about the concessions proposal for guiding.

 

This year, for instance, will be the last time RMI takes a long train of people up a route at one time, Whittaker said. Instead, the company will guide only in groups of 12.

Wow 12 instead of 16, thanks a lot!

[forrest_m]

just got around to reading this, thought it was a pretty balanced article, on the whole. i think it says that the group size is being reduced to 12 from 24, which sounds like an improvement to me unless that just means two groups of twelve instead of a single group of 24.

 

i have really mixed feelings about the whole future of guiding on rainier. on the one hand, with the growing popularity of climbing, people need somewhere to go and part of me thinks we should just be prepared to "sacrifice" one area (in this case rainier) to keep people from spreading out evenly over the whole range. on the other hand, part of me wants to try to preserve as much as possible free from commercialism.

 

i can also see both sides of the guide vs. guide issue. on one hand, rmi's monopoly is not at all fair, and it's obvious that the other guide services have a very strong case. on the other hand, i think that it's cool when an organization of historical significance continues to operate. the article mentions the exum guiding service on the grand teton, with exclusive rights to guide the exum ridge. i think that's pretty neat.

 

for what it's worth, the written comments i submitted at one of the public meetings on the new management plan were along the lines of "no increase in the total number of paying clients on the mountain, but distribute the days more fairly"

 

 

 

 

[COL._Von_Spanker]

How is it that RMI has a monopoly in the first place? It seems like anyone should be able to vie for permits? Though I would hope that the organization that kept RMI as the sole guide service would be organized enough to regulate all guided activity on the mountain.

 

I say a battle royal cage wrestling match between the leaders of the different guiding outfits, the schedule will then be broken up according to the outcome.

[freeclimb9]

How is it that RMI has a monopoly in the first place?

That's how concessions are awarded in most, if not all, National Parks.

[forrest_m]

i don't know the whole story, but my understanding is that for many years, all park concessions (not just here but all over the country) were monopolies, the park service only wanted to deal with one concessionaire for any given business. concessionaires have the right to match the highest bid because in a lot of businesses, they will have invested a lot of money in facilities (think ahwanee hotel).

 

as for why rmi has it, i imagine it has something to do with the fact that the whittakers were national heroes for planting old glory on top of the big-E and had good connections in washington. actually, when rmi got started, was there anyone else who wanted the concession?

 

 

Edited January 2, 2003 by forrest_m

[Fairweather]

By the Col.'s logic, Mcdonalds and Burger King should be allowed equal access to the food service franchise at MRNP? And Holiday Inn Inc. should share access to Longmire and Paradise Inn overnight lodging franchises?

 

I think RMI gets most of the pie because they provide the most $$$ to the park, and they provide a good quality service.

[btowle]

I don't think that the Park Service really cares that much that the climbers get the lowest cost climb. I suspect that there are probably advantages to them when they only have to deal with one guide service (for the most part).

 

The idea of one main guide service would allow a company to hire and keep higher quality guides. And give RMI credit for the people that they can get to the top of that mountain.

 

I know that RMI has sent assistant guides out with shovels to dress up the "trail" to the top that everyone else uses. I suspect that there are other little things that they agree to do to keep up their end of the bargin. They also keep their crowds to the DC route and generally leave the other routes to the rest of the climbers.

 

I'm not saying that other guide services shouldn't get more days, just that the way it is probably makes sense for the Park Service. I would probably do the same thing. Find a service that you trust and give them the consession as long as they hold up their end of the agreement and safely (as possible) get clients to the top.

 

Up until last year at least, I believe they took two groups of 12 most days (plus 3 guides per group).

[COL._Von_Spanker]

In response to

Poster: Fairweather

Subject: Re: Seattle Times Rainier Guiding Article

 

By the Col.'s logic, Mcdonalds and Burger King should be allowed equal access to the food service franchise at MRNP? And Holiday Inn Inc. should share access to Longmire and Paradise Inn overnight lodging franchises?

I think RMI gets most of the pie because they provide the most $$$ to the park, and they provide a good quality service.

 

What logic? I was asking a simple question, not a rhetorical one. Your reference to the other franchises on the mountain is totally different anyway. I think that other guide services, if closely monitored and regulated, could have a positive effect on rainier mouintaineering by giving consumers a choice. Not everyone shares your opinion of RMI, so what's wrong with being able to choose. personally i've never used a guide service and don't plan on it.

 

When you learn to read you will understand that by my logic, mc donalds and burgerking would have to fight in a cage to choose who the concessionier would be.

 

And I'm curious, how much money does RMI provide to the park and what are you basing that statement on?

[Dan_Larson]

Can you imagine how screwed up the D.C. would be if there were more than the Rmi groups up there guiding. I say they were first and are professional let em keep it . I am sick of that route anyways

[Cpt.Caveman]

Let the RMI guides make money.

 

IF some guides want to make real money they'd call on gaper clients and try out shit like Liberty Ridge, Mowich Face, Ptarmigan Ridge and other shit. Then we'd all have more entertainment with the news folks too

 

But the reality *seems* to be that most guides wouldn't want to guide those routes for various reasons. My guess is fitness of the clients AND the guides fitness as well as many other things If it was Chominix would the Willis Wall be guided every other week or what

[nerdom]

I had heard somewhere that Lou once guided Robert Kennedy up Rainier and became friends with him, and that JFK granted the exclusive concession. Apocryphal, I know, but it's what someone had related to me.

 

Actually, this link provides some support for this story:

 

RFK, Jr.

Edited February 18, 2003 by nerdom

[Jason_Martin]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Let the RMI guides make money.

 

IF some guides want to make real money they'd call on gaper clients and try out shit like Liberty Ridge, Mowich Face, Ptarmigan Ridge and other shit. Then we'd all have more entertainment with the news folks too

 

But the reality *seems* to be that most guides wouldn't want to guide those routes for various reasons. My guess is fitness of the clients AND the guides fitness as well as many other things If it was Chominix would the Willis Wall be guided every other week or what

 

There are a lot of misconceptions on your part Caveman.

 

First and foremost, most guides would love to guide things like Ptarmigan Ridge or Liberty Ridge. Not only that, they would not be particularly hard trips to sell. Many clients are not "gapers." In fact, there is a percentage that are high end. Unfortunately, these routes will not be open to guides unless the Park Service changes their policies... Which it looks like might happen based on the article which started this thread.

 

In Washington State, the North Ridge of Stuart, the Serpentine Arete on Dragontail, the North Ridge of Mt. Baker, the Coleman Headwall on Mt. Baker, Frostbite Ridge on Glacier, and even routes like the East Buttress Direct on South Early Winter Spire are guided many times every year. These are not necessarily the hardest routes in the state, but they are moderately difficult and are not for those whom you are calling "gapers."

 

Were the Willis Wall in Chamonix, it would definately be guided.

 

Guides have a slightly different mindset than the average climber. They take pride in getting people up moderately hard climbs safely.

 

Most guides receive a great deal of training in order to bring people up into the mountians safely. There are thousands of people being guided in Washington State every summer. More likely than not, you can only come up with one or two incidents involving clients or guides getting hurt in this state off the top of your head.

 

The whole idea that guides are in some way unsafe and get people hurt on a regular basis is ludicrous. On top of that, the idea that guides are not in shape and cannot climb hard is also a myth.

 

Outside of the state, the Cassin Ridge on Denali has been guided. The Nose and the Regular Northwest Face of Half Dome are guided in Yosemite all the time. The Black Ice Couloir in the Tetons is guided. Hard ice and rock routes around the country are guided every day...

 

When knocking guides and saying that they're gapers or out of shape, think about people like Steve House, Alan Kearney, Jim Nelson, Topher Donahue, Crag Luebben, Miles Smart, Doug Robinson, and all the others you're knocking.

 

Every guide I know is looking for challenging guiding. They are looking for things that engage both them and their clients. Your analysis of the guiding scene in America is not only ignorant, it's simply not based in reality.

 

Jason

[erik]

too bad they are stealing from the public. you are guiding on public land and need to repsect that. you are profiteering from everyone. not just your clients.

 

i certainly do not think guiding should ever affect the availability of areas, due to impact. guiding should never ever ever ever ever ever ever come before private parties when decieding quotas. you may say that guides have better knowledge then some outside regarding the care of the enviroment or what not, but that is not the point, we as the public are subsudizing you, just as we are the logging companies. with no return back to the public, you are in the same leauge as them.

 

 

 

[iain]

perhaps one difference is RMI guides w/ little experience can guide rainier while a UIAGM guide from europe would probably be nailed and/or deported if caught doing the same. that doesn't seem right to me.

[Dru]

especially cause the uiagm guide is actually qualified and tested

 

remember the Guides = Alpine Pimps thread? more!!!

[iain]

Dru said:

especially cause the uiagm guide is actually qualified and tested

god forbid. the reason why amga's overpriced (but undoubtedly high-quality) courses remain a backwater certification path...no one cares.

[Dru]

isnt an industry where the main source of income for quialified people, is training people to become qualified , sort of like a glorified pyramid scheme?

[Wallstein]

erik said:

too bad they are stealing from the public. you are guiding on public land and need to repsect that. you are profiteering from everyone. not just your clients.

 

What exactly are guiding companies stealing? And how would they be profitting from you? (the public) Are guiding companies taking something away from the land and aren't giving it back?

we as the public are subsudizing you, just as we are the logging companies. with no return back to the public, you are in the same leauge as them.

How is the government subsidizing guiding companies? The same way they are subsidizing general climbers.. Many guide services will do alot at the local level to give back. Almost all guide services teach things like Leave no Trace and other appropiate ways to act in the outdoors. I think that is called educating and giving back to the community. I have helped in the re-construction of popular trails in Yosemite that only climbers use. I know many guides that actively replace poor anchors on routes and pick up much more trash than the average climber.

 

Erik you are in the same league as my 10 year old brother, but better at bitching and whinning.

[erik]

read the part about user days, or permits. thats what i am getting at.

 

private industry capitalizing on the use of public land.

 

 

[COL._Von_Spanker]

erik said:

read the part about user days, or permits. thats what i am getting at.

 

private industry capitalizing on the use of public land.

 

 

What about watercraft? That's industry profiteering off of public land.

[erik]

COL._Von_Spanker said:

erik said:

read the part about user days, or permits. thats what i am getting at.

 

private industry capitalizing on the use of public land.

 

 

 

What about watercraft? That's industry profiteering off of public land.

 

well then i have an issue with them as well....though this is a climbing board?!

 

maybe>!

??

 

[Jason_Martin]

First, I agree with you Erik. But currently guide services do not threaten private parties and their access. One might even be able to make the arguement that they provide increased access through their educational programs. People who would dispose of human waste in a less than satisfactory manor might learn the right way if they learn how to climb from a guide service. The vast majority of the land closures or quotas currently in place in the U.S. are directly impacted by this one simple issue.

 

Many guide services do provide a service in the mountains. Every year parties that are in trouble are rescued by guides on mountains throughout the Northwest and throughout North America. As stated earlier, RMI guides help keep the "trail" on Rainier in shape for all parties. It is not uncommon for beginning climbers who are uncomfortable with route conditions to shadow guided parties. Guides and guided parties are often responsible for taking down piles of trash and in some cases blue bags that have been left behind by other parties.

 

Though you are right. Guides make their living by working on public land, but to compare a guide to a logging company is a bit extreme. Guides tend to prefer a leave no trace ethic over a leave no forest ethic.

 

You could go so far as to say that every guidebook you have is unethical from a wilderness preservation perspective. First, the authors and publishing company (mostly the publishing company) made money off of public lands; second, trees were cut to make the book; third, people visited the area thus impacting it more...

 

We could get even more extreme -- gear manufacturers are developing gear so that you might go out and climb on public land. Yep seems like their making money off the public land as well...

 

The point is that if you're climbing on public land, then someone has already made money off of that land somewhere.

 

iain said:

perhaps one difference is RMI guides w/ little experience can guide rainier while a UIAGM guide from europe would probably be nailed and/or deported if caught doing the same. that doesn't seem right to me.

 

In response to Iain's comment... You're right. It's not right.

 

Currently IFMGA guides from other countries are not allowed to work in the United States. However, fully certified AMGA guides are allowed to work in Europe. This is a serious double standard that the AMGA is trying to fix. European Guides feel very put upon by this system which allows Americans to work in their countries while not allowing them to work here. If things don't start to change, American Guides will lose these privilages.

 

The AMGA is doing its best to standardize the guiding industry in the United States. Theoretically a certain percentage of guides are supposed to be certified by 2006 for the guide services to keep the AMGA accrediation. These certified guides in turn will be responsible for educating those who are not certified until which time they become certified.

 

There are three certifications that an American Guide must obtain before he is an IFMGA mountian guide. They must be certified in ski guiding, alpine guiding, and rock guiding. To obtain any of these certifications requires multiple classes which cost thousands of dollars each and the passing of a test which also costs about fifteen hundred dollars. Sometimes people don't pass their tests and as a result lose their money.

 

Certification is a good thing. It indicates to everyone that this particular person is capeable of climbing and guiding at a certain level and that he or she is professional in the way they treat the environment and other climbers.

 

Jason

[Wallstein]

Yeah private industry capitalizing on public lands, it sucks but its going to happen. I-5 is public land right? How about all those commerical truck drivers getting in the public drivers way? They shouldn't be allowed to drive on the same roads as the public, especially during rush hour traffic because i know how bad traffic can piss you off Erik. They are stealling all of your roadway and they won't give it back...wha... wha...

[erik]

jasom,

 

that is what i was looking for thanks, about user days and what not.

 

logging and guiding may be a stretch, but in some eyes it is equal.

 

though bringing in publishers or manufactures is off route there. as they serve all interests and not just their own. and what i mean by that is that they are putting the information down for all, whereas the guides are soliciting and taking money from a select group.

 

i maybe offbase, but until i am shown otherwise, my opinions stay the same.

[Wallstein]

erik said:

 

as they serve all interests and not just their own. and what i mean by that is that they are putting the information down for all, whereas the guides are soliciting and taking money from a select group.

You think publishers and manufactures serve interest besides their own? Publishers solicit towards a select group and charge money for their books don't they? The park service sees guiding as a way of educating the general public, the same way a book might, albeit a bit more exspensively. Whats the difference?