Petzl Sirocco helmet vs. shell

[pjc]

(Disclosure: posted this to SP.org as well to get as many opinions as possible)

 

I've heard the two main prevailing thoughts of helmet manufacturers, for what a hard plastic shell does as opposed to just a foam helmet:

1. distributes force over the entire head, vs just impact point -- foam would just deform in that region without the shell.

2. keeps foam intact over multiple impacts.

 

I've used the Petzl Elios for this reason, but am going to replace it given that its near the end of its life. I'm looking at the Petzl Sirocco.

 

Petzl claims a safe mountaineering helmet due to the foam remaining intact over multiple impacts, but i don't see how this helmet addresses point #1.

 

Anyone have insight into the safety of the Sirocco vs hard shell?

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/vertica ... ts/sirocco

[JasonG]

When you say hard shell, do you mean old school helmets like the edelrid or ecrin roc?

 

I don't know if there is any way that the new foam helmets will be as safe as the old ones, or distribute the force of an impact as well (but maybe I'm wrong), but I've switched to the Sirocco and couldn't be happier with the comfort/weight difference. It has been tested and passed and that is good enough for me.

[pjc]

Cool, thanks for the feedback.

Also, i'm referring to any helmet with a shell, eg Petzl Elios.

[markwebster]

I am also considering that helmet. There are some big time alpine climbers wearing them. I think I saw someone like Colin Haley or Jens wearing one in a photo recently. The one person I met with one said he loved it.

 

And considering that all the great rock climbers don't wear helmets at all...this thing is so light...it could become very popular, even with the obvious drawback of the missing shell.

 

Any helmet is better than no helmet.

 

I did hear that there will be a bunch of copycat helmets coming out this spring, using the same foam technology...but with more acceptable colors.

 

I was about to buy the neon orange Petzl Sirocco but my wife forbid it. She said I looked like a pumpkin head dork :-)

[sepultura]

Mountain God or Pumpkin head, you make the call......

[ajpederson]

I heard someone call it the birth control helmet, because nobody will sleep with you if they see you wearing one.

[JasonG]

No argument that I look like a pumpkin head (Scott knows I'm no mountain god!), but once you put one on, you don't really care. I sometimes forget that I'm wearing a helmet- that never happened with the old plastic ones.

 

The EPP foam is surprisingly durable too. I've had mine for over a year and put it through some pretty typical Cascadian alpine abuse. It isn't like the foam that is under the hard plastic shells of its competitors.

 

The one drawback I've found is that it isn't easy to tighten the fit on the sides, if your head isn't shaped like the helmet. You can get it tight so it won't wobble around, but there is still some slop, side to side, if you get hit (at least on my head). Still, I think it would protect you plenty in the event of a fall.

 

Plus, I've noticed I no longer need a headlamp.

Edited March 4, 2014 by JasonG

[pjc]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm specifically still interested in how it addresses #1, of distributing forces for example in the case of rockfall. It doesn't seem to do much good on that front?

[JasonG]

I've never taken a big hit with any of my helmets, thankfully.

 

 

The UIAA helmet standard is higher than the CE, requiring 20% less force be transmitted to the head during a top/side/front/back impact with a test weight (5 kg) dropped from 2 meters(8kN vs. 10 kN for CE EN 12492:2000). Some of the other lightweight helmets out there made from EPS foam (BD Vapor) do not meet the UIAA standard. The Sirocco does, being made from EPP foam.

 

Still though, a helmet can only do so much. A 5 kg rock falling 2 meters isn't exactly moving that fast. At some point the force is enough to break your neck or turn your brain to mush so matter what you are wearing on your head.

Edited March 5, 2014 by JasonG

[markwebster]

JasonG,

How durable is it? I heard you can sit on it, and it will reshape...like memory foam.

 

Is that true?.

 

I worry that it will get crushed in my haul bag and crack. I've been known to sit on my pack from time to time.

[iceclimber]

Mark, saw a 200 lbs MEC employee stand on top of one...no problem with the helmet.

[JasonG]

It's so light that I can't bring myself to sit or stand on it, even though I've seen photos of people doing just that. It isn't brittle like EPS foam, so I don't doubt that you can sit on it and it will be just fine. I'm pretty amazed at the material, and I'm surprised that nobody has made a helmet out of it before. From what I understand, EPP foam has been around for a long time.

 

It does get dented and scratched from abuse, so if you sat or stood on it in a gravel parking lot or something, I could imagine that there would be indents that wouldn't pop back out.

[pjc]

"I did hear that there will be a bunch of copycat helmets coming out this spring, using the same foam technology...but with more acceptable colors. "

 

Mark, out of curiosity, do you know which companies?

[markwebster]

I heard that from that mountaineering store in Ashford, on the way to Paradise. He stocks that helmet. He might have just been speculating, but said to watch the upcoming spring trade shows. He said Petzl tends to lead the way, then other companies jump in. So it may all be rumors. I considered painting it with artist water color paint...

[Edvin M]

Hi, I got one a couple of month ago on a Christmas sale, used it ~30 days so far. No problems getting a good fit with a hood or hat under, but with nothing underneath it's not so comfortable. Adding some extra padding would help I think. Everything is scaled down to achieve the low weight so can't really complain there.

 

I've got hit twice with ice, IMO it doesn't absorb the chock as good as my hardhelmet(Petzl Elios)and the foam do get damaged from harder hits. No problems if you get a dinner plate or similar and let it bounce of your helmet.

 

In the attached picture you can clearly see were I got hit. First one was pretty hard, second one was strong enough to knock me of balance so it was pretty big.

 

As for other brands following I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a couple of more helmets in the coming years, EPP has been using in helmets for other sports some time now so I guess it's just a matter of time before we start seeing more of them but I haven't read any reports from OR, OD Freidrichstarssen or similar so might take another year or two?

[markwebster]

Thanks for that picture, very revealing! I wonder if it would benefit from a soft cover...like leather or something. That foam looks like it could rip very easily while having an epic in a chimney.

 

I'd love to replace my old Joe Brown helmet with something lighter...but not if it will wear out in a season.

 

[bargainhunter]

Mark,

 

I have your same Joe Brown Helmet. I also bought a Sirocco last year. The Sirocco is tougher than it looks and won't wear out scraping in a chimney. Still, the inner harness of the Joe Brown is far, far superior to distributing impact from a direct blow from rockfall. You can pound the Joe Brown with a fist and not feel pain from it, but a light blow on the Sirocco hurts. Still, the Sirocco is very light and has it's place, but for walls for serious impacts, I'll stick with the heavier Joe Brown.

[John Frieh]

Petzl Sirocco is awesome.

[JayB]

Interesting. I took a hit in an old Petzl Ecrin that felt like getting walloped by a Louiseville-slugger right across the forehead.

 

 

I never saw the rock - I just heard a click above me, glanced up, saw a dark streak heading towards me, dropped my head, and got knocked clean off my feet and onto my back. I had bruise on my head in the pattern of the helmet-suspension for about a week.

 

It was always my hunch that at least part of what saved me, and part of how the helmet worked, was the rock skipping/deflecting off of the rigid surface and thereby imparting less force to my head.

 

Intuitively at least, it seems like a soft/easily-deformable helmet would "catch" the rock more than a rigid/slick helmet like the Ecrin Roc and allow the rock to transfer more of the force to your head upon impact.

 

This is probably just speculative internet wankery that has little or no practical bearing on actual climbing situations, and once you cross a certain threshold every impact will be lethal - but even if I'd simply been knocked unconscious for a significant length of time or impaired in some other way, it would have been a very bad scene as it was getting late in the day, it was something like -25C, and there was not a heck of a lot my wife could have done to get me down 2-300 vertical feet of talus and across a semi-frozen river on her own. Could be wrong but I can't help but wonder if a soft-foam helmet would have protected me as well in that situation.

 

All of which is a long way of asking whether there are still situations where a rigid helmet with a suspension is likely to perform better, or if are they totally outmoded now?

 

[Off_White]

I dunno about tests Jay, but I think full suspension is still a better design for serious rockfall situations. I tend to avoid those sorts of affairs these days, so I'm pretty happy with my Petzl Meteor, which is light and compact enough to not be a bother.

 

I think it was wearing a helmet snowboarding that was the gateway drug that lead me to always wear a helmet when cragging, but I've had enough friends with close calls ("I'd have been in a coma without my helmet") even in mundane situations that I've become a pretty firm believer in wearing something. I've still got an older Edelrid cradle reserved for dodgier alpine exploits.

 

[JasonG]

All of which is a long way of asking whether there are still situations where a rigid helmet with a suspension is likely to perform better, or if are they totally outmoded now?

 

I'm with Off in that I can't see how the new helmets can be as safe as the old style for real serious rock or icefall, but it would be interesting if anyone could post up the actual test data.

 

Of course, the comfort and lightness of the Sirocco was enough to seduce me away from my old Edelrid.

[JayB]

Thanks for the input - I always liked to have a full-suspension helmet for alpine/chossy routes where I was mostly worried about taking a hard-hit from above, and a foam helmet where I was mostly worried about the impact from a lead-fall.

 

I haven't shopped for a new climbing helmet since ~2008, but it looks like just about all of the old war-horse models have been discontinued, and that only CAMP is selling an old-style suspension helmet.

 

They must have data that supports the ~100% shift to rigid-outer-shell+compressible-foam designs but I'd also like to see it.

 

It's also interesting to compare the price-points for climbing helmets vs other sports. The industry-standard kayaking helmet retails for ~$250-$350 depending on whether you get the full face option or not, and I see them on tons of boaters, but I'm guessing that no one would buy a $350 climbing helmet even if it offered significantly better protection/performance, despite the fact that the risk of a lethal blow is roughly in the same ballpark (though minor shots to the noggin are way more likely in kayaking).

[JasonG]

Jay, here's another old school helmet: http://www.edelrid.de/en/Edelrid/Sports/Ultralight-red.html

 

This is my favorite of the old ones, and pretty light too.

[kurthicks]

Bottom line -- Get one you will wear.

 

"In the current CE/UIAA regime every helmet is tested in the following way. Utilising an approved test rig at an approved test house, three types of weight are dropped from pre-determined heights at prescribed points onto a number of ‘conditioned’ helmets placed on a ‘head form’. The helmet is awarded a pass if the required results are obtained at each point. So what are the tests, weights and results?

1. Impact test - A 5kg rounded weight is dropped from 2m twice, 10cm apart, in the centre of the helmet. Impact force measured must be less than 10kN CE or 8kN UIAA.

2. Impact test - A 5kg flat bottomed weight is dropped from 50cm at 4 points at the front, sides and rear of the helmet. Impact force measured must be less than 10kN CE or 8kN UIAA. (Note: the lower the figure recorded the better)

3. Penetration test - A 3kg pointed weight is dropped from 1m in the centre of the top of the helmet. No mark must be seen in a ‘putty’ which is placed in the ‘head form’."

 

http://www.wildcountry.com/files/public/User_Guides/360_User_Guide_Final_Lo_Res_Jan_2010.pdf

 

http://www.climbing.com/gear/about-uiaa-and-ce-helmet-certification/

 

 

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=629

 

 

[pjc]

I bought one to try on, but it didn't fit my head well and returned it. Did any of those rumors pan out for other new ultralight helmets?