NPS shutdown: access to North Cascades et all

[JasonG]

So what is the latest on the AALP? I haven't heard much lately....and assumed they faded away to try again in another 10 years.

[Pete_H]

Anyone have any beta on whether FS roads on east side of Mt. Baker would be gated?

[JasonG]

Which road would that be? Thinking of Boulder or Shannon ridge roads? Some friends skied up on Baker (easton) last Friday and reported no road issues.

[Bronco]

Citations issued in Grand Teton, Yellowstone

The Associated Press

POSTED: 10/08/2013 11:29:10 AM MDT3 COMMENTS

UPDATED: 10/08/2013 12:06:33 PM MDT

 

JACKSON, Wyo.—National Park Service rangers in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks have been issuing trespassing citations to people found in the parks, which have been shuttered amid the budget impasse in Washington.

"We have issued nine citations," Grand Teton park spokeswoman Jenny Anzelmo-Sarles said Monday. The citations have primarily been over the last two days, she said.

 

In addition to assessing fines, rangers have warned other park visitors and turned still others around, Anzelmo-Sarles said.

 

Anzelmo-Sarles didn't have the dollar amount of the fines handy.

 

In addition to closure violations, citations for taking a vehicle off-road and for resource damage have also been issued in recent days, she told the Jackson Hole News & Guide.

 

In Yellowstone National Park, there have been no "widespread" issues regarding closure violations, spokesman Al Nash said.

 

"I know a few citations have been written," Nash said. "We do have a fairly robust boundary patrol in conjunction with hunting season on land surrounding the park."

 

The national parks closed last week after Congress and the White House deadlocked over spending priorities and the new health care law.

 

About 510 National Park Service employees in both parks have been furloughed.

 

People cited for trespassing in Grand Teton included cyclists, runners and drivers taking vehicles around temporary barricades.

 

"For the most part, people have been very good and we appreciate the help of the local community," Anzelmo-Sarles said. "There is still a very small percentage of people who have lashed out and actively tried to violate closures."

 

One person earned a citation after an illegal excursion ran long and his tardiness returning worried his friends.

 

"There was one individual on (Saturday) who was given a citation after biking to Death Canyon and then running into Alaska Basin with the intent to run down Cascade Canyon," Anzelmo-Sarles said. "The trail runner was delayed in returning so his friends called to notify law enforcement that he was overdue."

[olyclimber]

I want my money back for the damn park pass i paid for.

[mountainsandsound]

I'm thinking specifically about the ranger who forced two of the posters here to march back to Marblemount to get properly permitted rather than issuing them an available permit on the spot.

 

I don't see the problem. I've come up on the short end of the stick in this situation when I was permitted to camp in a backcountry camp in NCNP and found that all established sites were full, meaning that the issuing ranger was bad at math or someone had dodged the permit system. You mention that there were available permits, but how would issuing a permit on the spot discourage that behavior in the future? What if the next time those climbers took off without one the parties with the proper permits got shafted once they got to camp?

 

I guess I don't see the systemic problem that some folks see with the rangers in NCNP. I backpack/climb/hike there often and have never had a problem with them. Some of them have come across as overbearing nerds, but I've never felt like I was treated unfairly or my experience was diminished because of an interaction with a ranger. I don't agree totally on how things are run there but I haven't had a reason to blame the rangers in particular.

 

[JasonG]

I'm glad you've had good experiences in NCNP. While the majority of my ranger interactions haven't been negative, the ones that have certainly stick with me. I'm sure it is an easy rut to fall in when dealing with yahoos all day long, but treating people like idiots or criminals will never win you friends.

[mountainsandsound]

Agreed. If you can't stay patient during a workday of dealing with some potentially difficult people, I would say you don't have what it takes to be a ranger or law enforcement in general. I'm not saying that park users aren't having negative interactions with rangers, or that there aren't rangers with bad attitudes out there; each person's experience is their own. From my own experience as a frequent user, I haven't had any problems. But perhaps that is due to my perspective of what is and isn't a reasonable enforcement of the law, given that rangers do have latitude when it comes to what they choose to enforce. I don't see the enforcement of overnight permits as unreasonable. Letting that rule slide can have negative consequences for other users.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Nater

[JasonG]

To be clear, I have never run into a ranger where I was in the wrong (e.g. camping without a permit), but I sure have been treated with condescension and suspicion on more than one occasion. And from talking with many other local climbers, I am not alone- This is what myself and others are getting at. It goes way beyond overnight permit enforcement.

 

But I think you've hit on the exact issue- I expect rangers to be a lot more easy going (and less hard-assed cop) than you do. This isn't Compton. Heavy handed anchor removal only adds to the Gestapo image.

[olyclimber]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/09/231086726/county-in-utah-threatens-takeover-of-national-park-areas

[mountainsandsound]

 

But I think you've hit on the exact issue- I expect rangers to be a lot more easy going (and less hard-assed cop) than you do. This isn't Compton. Heavy handed anchor removal only adds to the Gestapo image.

 

I think you're right. Maybe I do set the bar too low for cops. Thinking about a few particular incidences with police during my late teens and early 20s that left me a bit jaded, when I am treated with anything less than hostility I tend to view it as positive. And I don't feel the same way about anchor removal as I do regarding enforcement of overnight permits. Those anchors are not destroying the environment (compared to tat, trails, bridges, pit toilets, etc...) and not (arguably I suppose) diminishing the experience of others, so I don't see why it is imperative that they be chopped.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Nater

[BootsandPants]

Interesting.

 

I was climbing in Red Rocks the past week and apparently the rangers there were not allowed to issue citations. They could ask you to leave, but they couldn't fine you. I don't know the rationale behind it, maybe because they were working but not getting paid? Not sure how that works, but that was the case.

 

Granted this was for areas outside of the loop road (ie. camping in the Black Velvet Canyon parking lot) or hiking to access canyons off of the loop. I don't think they were harassing anyone who walked in to hike or climb, at least they didn't bother us. I'm sure if you broke through the barricade with your car it would be a different story.

[num1mc]

This is always a good read. Talks about how NPS LEO has such a high rate of assault against them in comparison to other Federal agencies.

 

Too bad the other agencies have balls, and don't think that general argumentativeness is assault

 

http://www.jmu.edu/icle/pdf_files/Applied%20Research/Analysis%20of%20Assaults%20on%20National%20Park%20Service%20Rangers.pdf

[Fairweather]

Wow, I don't think I've seen a study that makes so many assumptions and takes so many liberties with definitions in a very long time. More proof that social scientists are particularly adept at producing reports that tell them what they already believe.

 

Of course, with only 19,000 visitors annually it's hard to believe NCNP staff face the same LE problems that plague a park like Yosemite.

[JasonG]

I guess their definition of assault doesn't match mine.

 

"Passive resistance without a physical assault on a ranger, flight without physical assault on a ranger, evidence of a failure to comply or uncooperativeness without evidence of a physical assault,...." etc.

 

Talk about cooking the numbers. Sheesh.

 

 

 

 

[num1mc]

Wow, I don't think I've seen a study that makes so many assumptions and takes so many liberties with definitions in a very long time. More proof that social scientists are particularly adept at producing reports that tell them what they already believe

 

It's not the individuals doing the study who are cooking the books, it's the NPS who is counting passive resistance and failure to comply as assaults against LE. The social scientists on the NPS payroll just lack the balls to tell LE that they are a bunch of pussies.

 

But this way the DOI can complain about the ongoing plaque of assaults against their LEO's, and get M-16's so they can enforce order in the Forbidden gully.

 

Of course, with only 19,000 visitors annually it's hard to believe NCNP staff face the same LE problems that plague a park like Yosemite.

According to the report, Yellowstone had the highest number of LE assaults. Having spent several July's in Yosemite in the 80's, you could get a beat down by the bikers there. It's hard to imagine that Yellowstone is such a difficult place for LE, unless you count hurt feelings as a serious attack

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The concept that the National Parks are "services" that "cease to function" when the government shuts down is just bizarre. If anything, they should "fail open", at least when we're talking about wild resources (trails, rock climbs) and not facilities.

 

POTD.