NPR "Enviro-science"

[iain]

billions, Greg, billions of years

[allthumbs]

 

09:30 14 December 02

 

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition

 

A cunning statistical study has exposed scientists as sloppy reporters. When they write up their work and cite other people's papers, most do not bother to read the original.

 

The discovery was made by Mikhail Simkin and Vwani Roychowdhury of the University of California, Los Angeles, who study the way information spreads around different kinds of networks.

 

They noticed in a citation database that misprints in references are fairly common, and that a lot of the mistakes are identical. This suggests that many scientists take short cuts, simply copying a reference from someone else's paper rather than reading the original source.

 

To find out how common this is, Simkin and Roychowdhury looked at citation data for a famous 1973 paper on the structure of two-dimensional crystals. They found it had been cited in other papers 4300 times, with 196 citations containing misprints in the volume, page or year. But despite the fact that a billion different versions of erroneous reference are possible, they counted only 45. The most popular mistake appeared 78 times.

 

The pattern suggests that 45 scientists, who might well have read the paper, made an error when they cited it. Then 151 others copied their misprints without reading the original. So for at least 77 per cent of the 196 misprinted citations, no one read the paper.

 

So much for the myth... hahahaha

 

 

[Dru]

Hey RobBOb I am a Canadian water resource specialist with a MSc, and I too say you are out to lunch. The point made about disease control and water contamination MAY NOT be the issue for the environmental lobby but is sure as hell IS the issue with regard to public health.

 

Illegal dumping& disposal of manure from the hog, beef and chicken farms is the leading cause of aquifer contamination in the Langley and Sumas-Aldergrove (the latter a cross-boundary so it is on US side too) aquifers. (How did the government I currently work for respond to this? They laid off the colleague of mine responsible for ticketing offenders and enforcing violations as soon as they took office cause the farmers paid for the local MLA's campaign.)

 

Walkerton, ON - 35 people dead of gastrointestinal disease after groundwater overloaded by manure dumping develops fecal coliform levels 1000X higher than the projected level (which was what the water treatment level was designed for). This stuff could make you sick just from washing your hands in it let alone drinking it.

 

North Battleford, Sask: 21 people dead, again, treatment system fails when overloaded with pathogen levels thousands of times higher than what the system chlorination levels were designed to treat. Again directly linked (forensic pathology, microbe in dead humans DIRECTLY TRACED to be same strain as microbes found in upstream hog and beef farms) to untreated manure dumping into suurface water.

 

In some areas of Europe, where population density in agricultural areas is much higher, all animal manure is now treated the same as human sewage, and chemically treated before discharge. For instance, the Danes pump all animal manure directly into purpose built sewage lines (Im not sure if they treat these at the same plants as they do human or if they built separate plants too).

[iain]

New Scientist rocks! My favorite science publication to read.

[rbw1966]

Hey RobBob--

 

I'm not defending Jim's replies to you at all, but when you write:

 

Your tirade reaction only proves my point, that so many people emotionally launch themselves at stopping other people from doing things, yet fail to walk the talk themselves.

 

You seem to make the same mistake for which you criticize him. Your initial post to this thread is filled with hyperbole and speculation with precious little factual evidence. I listened to the same broadcast, not carefully though--still half asleep, and didn't get the impression that environmentalists are trying to shut down hog farmers.

 

I vaguely recall a 60 minutes broadcast a few years back about a hog farming operation back east that was having water containment problems. My objections to large-scale hog farming is more from an ethical standpoint however.

 

Interesting topic!

[Jim]

So now that everyone's resume is on file, I'll still go on my post. RobBob's post shows a lack of experience in the issue he's trying to make a strong point about. I apologize for the crack about the 5.4 thing. Everything else was a real assessment of fact. And I'll agree with that Greg guy if he doesn't try and send me an electronic NRA membership form.

[allthumbs]

"Where's the Pork?"

[Dru]

Raise Horse not Hog. The world needs Horsecock

[iain]

And I'll agree with that Greg guy if he doesn't try and send me an electronic NRA membership form.

Don't worry they send forms by cannon. Just give 'em your address and they can set the azimuth and trajectory. Ever play a game of "ballistics"? bwahaha

[Greg_W]

Oops!! Sorry, Jim, it's already on the way. Just kidding. It just seems that everyone has credentials to support their opinions, so why not publish the text of the rules you are discussing to prove your point?

[rbw1966]

Whats green and smells like pork?

 

 

 

Kermit's finger.

[RobBob]

I agree that row-crop agriculture has traditionally been a big water user, but I believe that overall you would find that ag water use is actually declining due to BMPs, rather than advancing. However, residential/commercial water use is rising fast. Hell, Boone Pickens wants to build a pipeline from his ranch in west Texas in order to sell water to the Dallas-Fort Worth area!

 

Hey Jim, is this the statement that makes you decide that I'm an "armchair quarterback with no real-world experience in the issues?" Just where do you "see either uninformed opinions, or blatant lies put forth as first hand knowledge?" Did I describe hog lagoons incorrectly? It looks to me like I have stated the facts pretty fucking clearly. Maybe the volume or NPK measures of human sewage discharge are closer to 1000:1 over animal discharge. Otherwise I fail to see your problem.

 

I think that you have showed your ass this morning, my friend. And I'm glad to know that you are a superior climber.

[iain]

the answer is soybeans, plain and simple. imagine the reduction in healthcare costs to this nation.

[sk]

I don't know how many of you grew up in the country arround cows and hogs... but come ON!!! I can think of way better ways to die then POOP!!!!

 

 

I am not a scientist, I don't care to be one.... But I will say that DAIRY FARMS STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN!!! That may not be an issue for you, but to me.... when you smell smoke there is usauly fire... so if you can smell the dairy farm there is bound the be some kind of bactiral contamination, wich leads to having to inoculate the cows with more Anti-biotics wich cause our children to become imune causes bactria to become stronger we get sicker more for longer... THIS SUCKS!!! and the problem can be solved. check out the instances of E-coli... there was an e-coli contamination at our county fair this year I guess what I am saying is that if you are going to have a big farm you should have to pay to clean up the poop.

[allthumbs]

Yeah, and keep that shit outta the rivers.

[RobBob]

rbw, I understand your point, but I'm responding to a personal attack, which is something entirely different.

 

I know this sounds like an excuse, but I have GOT to get my work done, so I will be gone awhile. Screw all you guys. I am unfamiliar with Dru's citations, but I am going to read up on them a little later---with an open mind, too, because I know he has one as well.

[Dru]

robBob we are gonna spray all over this thread while you gone. When you come back we are gonna be talking about faked moon landings and which shoe to wear on which foot while sending Carnival Cracks.

 

So, if we didnt have cow farms what would the magic mushrooms grow on????

[iain]

agreed trask our rivers need protection for our mental health as well.

[RobBob]

One last post...

Yeah, and keep that shit outta the rivers.

but trask, there's more of OUR shit in the rivers. That doesn't make the headlines. And WE should pay for that, and deal with it first.

[sk]

GOOD QUESTION DRU my man... true story... majic mushroom grew in the pasture in front of my high school

[sk]

I just realized that I think my last post explain why I can't spell

 

oh and I think we should keep alll the shit that we can out of the rivers how is that for an idea???

[Dru]

Magic mushrooms grew on Grandma's lawn. True story, 1977, I was being babysat while Mom went shopping and Grandma would stop reading me story and go outside to chase the hippies (there were still a few around) out of her yard.

[AlpineK]

I listened to that on NPR. I didn't read quite as much into the report as RobBob did.

 

I'm sorry, but if you have a huge open vat of shit and it rains a lot the shit is going to flow downstream.

 

I haven't studdied the issue a lot, but the other day some dog owner threw a bag of dogshit into my chips. (Fuckin disgusting ) I say if you own a pig you should do the right thing with the pig shit. That is don't dump it in somebody's back yard.

 

Meat is Murder

The Smiths

 

[Dru]

Ya, I hear the guys on the garbage truck hate it when they get a trashcan full of dogshit from "walkies". They dump the can into the truck then when it does the compactor thing, the baggies full of shit eject out thru the sides in a high pressure spray

[allthumbs]

Responsible dog owners should bring the shit home and flush it. People suck sometimes.