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rob

quiver killers?

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So I'm cheap and wondering are quiver killers reliable for a BC setup? I've been interested in installing some inserts into my drifters and my shuksans to avoid buying another pair or bindings but I called up Evo in Seattle to ask about it and they told me that they were a "terrible" idea for BC skiing and that "nobody really even uses them anymore."

 

What's the deal? Is that accurate, or do they just want to sell me bindings?

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I would disregard their comments. Several of my ski partners and myself all use them without problem. I use Jon Drums' products and they are top notch in my opinion. bindingfreedom.com

 

If you have some time to kill:

long thread about inserts

 

Happy to answer more questions if you have them.

Edited by kevino

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If you are comfortable with power tools you can do all the stuff yourself. His templates are good as well. I do all my own binding mounts now.

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I got mine professionally installed by the guys at Backcountry Essentials in Bellingham. I think it was $100 per paio of skis, and they were perfect and ensured that everything worked out perfectly. I would highly reccomend at least calling them up, but I would also say it would be worth the drive up there. If you are good with tools, you could for sure do it yourself, time wise it just worked for me to have them do it.

 

Quiver Killers are a great setup if you have a signle set of bindings and want to swap them around. I personanly have three pairs of skis, a pair of tele bindings and a pair of AT bindings and have all three pairs of skis drilled for both sets of bindings so I can swap them back and forth (essentially six pairs of skis for the cost of three fully rigged pairs).

 

Beyond the flexibility of changing the bindings out, they pack smaller when you remove the bindings if you are going to travel with them. They are also significantly stronger than a normal wood screw and epoxy set up that most bindings are mounted with - I cannot remember the exact difference in terms of pull-out-force required, but it was on the order of about 1.25 times the conventiional wood screw binding set up.

 

I can think of NO reason that they are a bad option for backcountry skiing. I always carry extra machine screws in case I loose one (never happened), and I always have a tool to tighten the screws before a trip, and througout the trip when opportunities arise, just to be cautions - but I have never had a situation where I lost a screw, or where a screw was loose.

 

Vibra-tite is a commercially available product (I bought mine from amazon.com) that you can apply to screws that helps prevent them from vibrating out of the insert as added security.

 

Again, for anyone who has multiple pairs of bindings or skis, I find that the quiver killers are worth their weight in gold. Its also really easy to just buy that next pair of skis, because its only $100 for the bindings ...

 

Hope that helps.

Edited by dave schultz

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I put some in a couple pair of my skis. They've worked well so far. I've heard the binding freedoms are better though. I did the work myself and it was pretty easy. Helped to have a drill press. Don't use the heavy duty thread locker or use too much. You'll end up backing the insert out when you take the screw out. I learned this the hard way.

 

Good discussion on binding inserts on Lou Dawson's site: wildsnow.com

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I'm unconvinced, since i prefer a different binding for my lightweight ski mountaineering, go-to BC boards, fat BC boards, and resort/side country skis.

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I've been using quiver killers for two years now, primarily in the back country - they have a few issues, but nothing too major. I switched over to binding freedom's slotted inserts last year for a new pair of skis and found them much easier to work with (and they are cheaper!). When properly installed with loctite, i've never had a loosening issue (besides with free rides). I'm ~230lbs and ski 20-30 days a year pretty aggressively.

 

Downsides:

*Don't work with free rides - for some reason, no matter how much loctite i put on the screws and how tight they are, free rides toe piece always come loose. Two friends of mine have had this same issue.

*Make sure to use loctite

*Make sure to let the inserts sit in a cup of acetone before installing them, as sometimes the OEM doesn't de-grease them

 

Upsides:

*I didn't have to buy another pair of bindings for my wife, just skis/skins (she only tours a few days a year)

*Much easier to bring multiple pairs of skis traveling and lower risk of breaking bindings in baggage

*Easy to replace a broken dynafit heel piece in the backcountry

*Can swap out alpine bindings with dynafits on my big skis for resort days

*Don't have to have an extra pair of bindings for rock skis

*Lower commitment to buy skis. If you mount yourself, its ~$30/pair to mount with inserts, much cheaper than the $300-$600 cost of new bindings

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Mounting plates are way easier to install, and you can re-use them if you want to get some new skis. And you can still sell the old ones, because they aren't all fubar'd up from the inserts.

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I'm unconvinced, since i prefer a different binding for my lightweight ski mountaineering, go-to BC boards, fat BC boards, and resort/side country skis.

 

Curious why you need different bindings for those three? Inserts would still be advantageous if your bindings all have the same mounting pattern, then you can still swap the bindings between skis.

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Mounting plates are much heavier, much more expensive and add stack height.

 

 

Much heavier? Maybe by percentage, but certainly not by feel. Too expensive? That's relative, but they're reusable and re-sellable. They also have the added advantage of allowing you to use your favorite fat sticks in the resort with your alpine bindings and in the BC with your tech bindings. IME, stack height is meaningless on touring bindings, performance wise, but I do everything in my power to avoid skiing hardpack, so maybe I'm not the best judge.

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sweet, thanks for the info guys.

 

I think I'll give the binding freedom inserts a try. I only have one pair of bindings anyway and I'm not a picky enough skier yet to want to match my bindings to my ski or conditions -- that sounds like too much thinking.

 

omg I can't wait for winter!

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I don't have the exact weight of inserts, but they're less than 260g, which counts if you're into that sort of thing.

 

Price is $120 per ski set vs $18...

 

Stack height is more of a concern if you use brakes or ski crampons. We're only talking 7 mm here but ya know...

 

Not really trying to get into an argument about it. Both systems have their perks.

 

Rob I think you'll be happy and Jon Drums is a good guy if you have any questions.

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They [plates] also have the added advantage of allowing you to use your favorite fat sticks in the resort with your alpine bindings and in the BC with your tech bindings.

 

That's not an added advantage of plates, since that's exactly what I do with my BF inserts.

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If you end up going to DIY route make sure to use Vibratite, rather than Loctite. I'm not sure what you have for bindings but I know there were some cracked tele bindings due to the plastic getting eaten away at from the Loctite. I bet if you were cautious you could get away with it, but I only have one set of bindings too and didn't want to risk breaking them.

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I installed Quiver Killers this past February so I could use my Dynafit Radicals on different pairs of skis and so I could use the Radicals and tele bindings on the same ski. They are solid. I use them inbounds while teaching and free skiing at Meadows - I've taken some hard landings - no issues. I've also skied a bunch in the backcountry with them and no problems. I check to make sure the screws are tight before I head out and I carry spare screws otherwise no concerns.

 

Good product and way better than buying another $500 set of bindings and new tele skis...

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Can't wait for winter too! (although this has been the best summer ever for climbing). New issues of Backcountry and Powder in the mail box have helped feed the pre-season stoke.

 

Inserts are great and should not be feared but also are not 100% idiot proof as has been noted. Partially because of what shops charge to install inserts, but mostly because of the nuances involved (getting the proper machine screw length, issues with future binding swaps, screws and inserts loosening, etc); I think this should be one of those DIY projects. I have hand-mounted about 50 pairs of bindings but still took a few tries to get inserts right. Practice on an old ski and do not consume alcohol while installing inserts!

 

Yes, Binding Freedom inserts are better because of the slotted tops but I actually like the jammed nut tool that Quiver Killer makes to install the inserts flush with the ski. The BF tool for the slotted top is not super solid. The BF guide block was almost useless for getting the inserts perfectly straight and a drill press would be better but I had no problem with a hand drill.

 

I would not trust the screw length per binding table listed on the QK or BF websites since it was generated by the “community” and not checked for accuracy. I learned this the hard way but Tacoma Screw is a better resource for M5 screws anyway and who doesn’t enjoy an occasional trip to Tacoma Screw?

 

As has been stated above, use the recommended lock tight but I still suspect screws loosening and screws locking to the inserts and backing out of the insert (both have happened to me) are potential problems which is why I recommend that inserts should be a DYI project.

 

Man, I love talking skiing and ski gear, anyone ski the TLT6 yet and when is someone gonna make and sell a functional, skiable TTS binding (sorry, the current commercially available ain’t IMHO)…

 

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I have the quiver killers on several pairs of skis and have had fairly good success. One pair has tech binding/alpine binding mount another pair has tech binding/heavy AT binding mount.

 

Ultimately, I wouldn't go for the "multiple bindings same ski" mount again, but would do the "one pair of bindings, different skis" type of configuration. For instance, if you had a winter ski and a spring ski and wanted to use the same set of bindings.

 

Another great use of them would be to quiver killer a tech binding toe piece mount onto a splitboard.

 

Anyway, I've installed with both a hand drill and a drill press and have mounted by enlarging old holes and doing fresh mounts with a jig and the wider insert sized drill bit. I made a wood block jig for the wide bit for enlarging with a hand drill, which I found really helps to get a good straight wide hole for the insert without the need for a drill press. I also found that tapping by hand was easier than using a drill press.

 

I've found that the screws will loosen despite using red loctite, but after re-tightening they generally hold tight.

 

When installed properly in good quality planks (ie decent quality wood core skis) these inserts are very strong and create a watertight alternative to a heli-coil.

 

So rob, the answer to your question is "yes" this would be a great way to maximize your binders.

But, in the end the cost and time of installing the qk's into two sets of skis and switching bindings at night when you decide you want to ski the shuksans it would probably be worth buying another set of bindings...

 

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But, in the end the cost and time of installing the qk's into two sets of skis and switching bindings at night when you decide you want to ski the shuksans it would probably be worth buying another set of bindings...

 

I disagree. I will swap my bindings in parking lot / trail head when I decide whether I want to tele or AT and if I want the super fat planks or the regular skis. It takes all of 5 mintues, with gloves on.

 

If your biggest problem is deciding what skis or bindings to use, the cost of the quiver killers is probably not abig deal.

 

I do like the idea of putting the tech toe binding on the splitboard. I have never snowboarded, but that seems like it wouuld make teh skin much less taxing, if of course you are already using a tech friendly boot.

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I also found that tapping by hand was easier than using a drill press.

 

I tapped by hand turning my drill press and that seemed to work well.

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I also like to tap by hand on a lathe or a five-axis milling machine. But I've never done that with my skis.

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I'm unconvinced, since i prefer a different binding for my lightweight ski mountaineering, go-to BC boards, fat BC boards, and resort/side country skis.

 

Curious why you need different bindings for those three? Inserts would still be advantageous if your bindings all have the same mounting pattern, then you can still swap the bindings between skis.

 

My ski-mo boards are mounted with Speed's, and I wouldn't want a plate because it adds weight. I am a big fan of brakes, though, so my go-to boards have Vertical FT's. My new powder boards (coming soon!!) will be mounted with Vertical FT's too.

 

If I still skied side country as much as I did in Jackson and Tahoe, I would have them mounted with a pair of Marker Duke's for the step in/out convenience, and I'd also be using a beefier pair of boots to drive them.

 

I agree that plate can save $$, but only if you have plates on all your skis. And having plates on only two pairs isn't enough in my thinking - I think you'd need three pairs or more all sharing the same binding to make this truly cost effective. In my experience, most people have only one pair of skis, some have two pairs, and few have three or more pairs.

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