Peter_Puget Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 your climbing future http://www.accessfund.org/ CAVE ROCK ACTION ALERT! December 5, 2002 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Forest Service To Prohibit Climbing At Cave Rock, NV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cave Rock, a well-known crag on the south shore of Lake Tahoe, could be closed to climbing as early as this month to accommodate the religious concerns of the local Washoe tribe. The Access Fund has been working for over eight years to keep Cave Rock open to climbing, but the new preferred management alternative of the Forest Service would eliminate all climbing activities at the site. Other "noninvasive recreation" such as hiking, picnicking, stargazing, boating, and fishing would be allowed to continue at Cave Rock. Likewise, use of the four-lane highway that tunnels through the sacred site will remain unchanged. The Forest Service’s Cave Rock decision could influence management decisions across the country and serve as a basis for closing any climbing area that is also considered a traditional cultural property. WASHOE CONCERNS WITH CLIMBING: In the Washoe Tribe's view, the physical effects of rock climbing and the mere presence of climbers on the rock are considered to be insensitive, distracting, and incompatible with their traditional spiritual activities. In addition, rock climbing "affects the setting, feel, and association" of the Cave Rock traditional cultural property (TCP), a legal property designation protected under the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA). Washoe elders have expressed specific concern regarding female climbers at the site, noting that the presence of women is a particular desecration. According to the Washoe, the intimate contact between climbers and Cave Rock leads to an exchange of power between the rock and climbers that affects the TCP. Thus, vehicles traveling through the tunnels are transitory and do not affect the rock as much as climbers. The Washoe would prefer that only their recognized spiritual doctors be allowed access to Cave Rock; the Forest Service has accommodated their wishes only to the extent that climbers will be excluded -- all other recreational and transportation uses will be allowed to continue unchanged. THE ACCESS FUND'S POSITION: Because Cave Rock is public property, the Forest Service has an obligation to explore management alternatives that do not unfairly benefit one group at the expense of another (especially where religious preferences are concerned). Indeed, a mandatory closure to climbing at Cave Rock raises significant Constitutional concerns. There are numerous examples across the country where federal land managers have effectively balanced cultural concerns with recreational use, including: Hueco Tanks, Devils Tower (AKA Bear Lodge), and the Red River Gorge. The Access Fund believes that the majority of climbers in the United States are sympathetic to Native American concerns and will sacrifice climbing opportunities to respect Native American religion -- without the burden of exclusionary regulations. This belief is substantiated by the results of the voluntary closure at Devils Tower, which has led to a remarkable 85% (or more) decline in climber visitation during the month of June. The Access Fund believes that climbers will and should support a similar policy at Cave Rock, and that the Forest Service should select Alternative 2 (Manage Sport Climbing to Reduce Effects on Cave Rock TCP) -- and allow climbers to voluntarily respect Washoe religious concerns. Likewise, the AF believes that the preferred alternative (Alternative 6, the Maximum Immediate Protection of Heritage Resource) is too extreme a management direction and inevitably raises serious Constitutional concerns. THE PROPOSED CLOSURE IS ONLY NOW AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC COMMENT: The Forest Service threatened to close Cave Rock several years ago. At that time, the Access Fund was successful in convincing the agency that Cave Rock should remain open to climbing and provided a joint education effort that encouraged climbers to climb elsewhere out of respect for Washoe religious beliefs. In 1998, with the urging of the Access Fund, the Forest Service released a draft plan for Cave Rock with a preferred alternative allowing climbing. The climbing community submitted comments and supported this former preferred alternative. The new restrictive preferred alternative that prohibits climbing was not part of the 1998 draft Cave Rock plan. It is only now available for public review and comment. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO COMMENT ON THIS NEW PLAN BY THE DECEMBER 15 DEADLINE The recently issued Cave Rock Management Direction Environmental Impact Statement can be viewed at http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/ltbmu/management/projects/cave_rock/. Write the Forest Service in support of Alternative 2 and oppose Alternative 6. Alternative 2 would allow public access, including rock climbing, to the National Forest at Cave Rock. However, climbing would be managed to decrease the current level of use by reducing the number of climbing routes. Thus, under Alternative 2, most existing routes will remain accessible, however no new routes or bolt installation would be permitted. Maintenance of existing routes by climbers would be conducted only with prior permission from the Forest Service. Tell the Forest Service that selecting Alternative 2 and allowing for a voluntary closure at Cave Rock is the best way to balance recreational and Native American interests. Write to: Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit Attn: Cave Rock 870 Emerald Bay Road, Suite 1 South Lake Tahoe, CA 96150 Or email John Maher, Archaeologist for the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit, at jmaher@fs.fed.us ALSO: YOUR COMMENTS WILL HAVE MORE IMPACT IF YOU WRITE, FAX OR EMAIL COPIES OF THEM TO FOLLOWING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND THE SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: The Honorable Scott McInnis Chair, Subcommittee of Forests and Forest Health United States House of Representatives 320 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-0603 Fax: (202) 226-0622 The Honorable Jim Gibbons Subcommittee on National Parks, Recreation and Public Lands United States House of Representatives 100 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-2802 Fax: (202) 202-225-5679 The Honorable Ann M. Veneman Secretary of Agriculture U.S. Department of Agriculture Washington, D.C. 20250 agsec@usda.gov ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VIRTUAL TIMES POLICIES: 1. The Access Fund office in Boulder is the only source of outgoing messages to the lists. 2. The AF will not sell or give away email addresses of V-Times subscribers. 3. V-Times is an announcement-only e-mail list; therefore, you cannot reply to any of the list members, and all e-mail addresses will remain confidential. 4. Send comments or news to john@accessfund.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 WHAT THE FUCK!?! There's a freakin' highway cut through that cliff!! I guess the semi's roaring by, and the motorboats launching right next to the lower cliff don't mess w/ their spiritual schtuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 Sent my comments to jmaher@fs.fed.us in support of Alternative 2. Cave Rock isn't the greatest place to climb with the highway underfoot, but I respect the rights of people to climb there. The "elders" of the Washoe tribe are full of shit with regard to power exchange and the desecration by the presence of women. They're probably just pissed that their tribe (all 1500 members) don't have their own casino yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 What? The land was stolen from them in the first place, and we can't respect their wish that we stay the hell off of it? An admittedly so-so crag? A compromise is always nice, of course, but it seems like bringing the beef with Native Americans is not the best use of the Access Fund's clout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 I hate this shit. The Indians don't own the rock - they should have to share just like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 You gotta be kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 before i freak out, is this anything like what is going on with Devils Tower??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Two things: DFA you're fucking idiot (I know this isn't news to you). Your logic sucks; just because a few people lived in the area a few hundred years before we came doesn't mean they own the whole fucking West. Besides, they lost and we won: to the victor go the spoils, plain and simple. Go ahead and flame me, I don't fucking care. Second, Muffy, the "closure" at Devils Tower is VOLUNTARY. You can climb at the Tower during the month of June if you so desire. I don't think anyone does, both as a compromise and to make sure that the indians don't push for full climbing closure. Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 from what I read in a seira club mag there seems to be some litigation... they are trying to extend that to a ban of all climbing all the time or some one wants to bolt it or something... some one help... I suck with details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 The last I heard at the Tower, it was time to redo their management plan and there were some questions on nailing, placing bolts, etc. There was a big push by some local guides to get comments in to the rangers. I haven't heard how it turned out, but I would be surprised if they shut the climbing down - I think that's one of the main draws. It's not like it's right on the highway, it's in the middle of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 The PNW injuns got more casino money than God. Time to yank their subsidies and let them join the rat race like the rest of us bums. Believe me, some of the local tribes are rollin' in dough. No more special favors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 there is ablurb about it in the latest seira club mag... you should read it if you can... maybe I just misunderstood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Oh, but Trask, they're sovereign nations We feel guilty so we must give them more worthless land and mobile homes so they can not do shit and rake in money from the casinos. The whole thing is a crock of shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 SIERRA CLUB SUCKS!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Fuck em! Cut em loose once and for all and never help their ass again. If they blow it and lose everything, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 I used to realy love the seira club because I saw them as the more moderate option... but if they are going to start saying that rock climbing is bad for the environment... then I will have to stop supporting them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Sierra Club has a moderate front, but they have some pretty extreme ideas - like that people should move to the cities and leave the forests, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Any of the environmental groups would just as soon see the demise of the human race. They're fucking greenie wackos...far, far left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 guess all my suport is going to the access fund now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Send your support to The Trask Foundation. As treasurer, I can assure you that only 90% of your donation will go for booze and broads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 you'll get no sex drugs (booze) and rock and roll welfare from me BUCKO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 If you were my woman, I'd put your bare butt over my knee and give you a sound spanking with a pink feathered switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AA Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 injuns Trask, must you use this term? Do any of you anti's even know anything about our government's history with Native peoples? And why all they have now are casinos and a sacred rock? At the very least, support Alternative 2, and do a little reading about how our nation for the past 120 years has fucked over hundreds of tribes, then maybe you won't slander them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 That's total bullshit. It's time for the natives to lose the diapers and get on with life like the rest of us. Babysitting special groups of citizens because of a guilty govt. conscience doesn't cut it anymore. We came, we conquered! Besides, the few Indian friends I have totally agree with me and have matriculated nicely into our multi-ethenic society and work place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 AA, as much as I do care to have respect for others and their beliefs... first it will be cave rock and devils tower... then what??? leavenwirth? smith rock? before you know it there will be NO ROCK CLIMBING because others find it offensive. just out of curiosity does any body know any thing about the clif dwellers??/ i believe they lived in the south west some where... I would be interested in there beliefs on climbing rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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