Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Damn, Trask, you big doofus; this has nothing to do with whether Native Americans can make something of themselves here in the great land o' the free. It's about whether we're being selfish pricks as climbers and disrespecting something that they hold as culturally significant. And, hell, it sounds like the Washoe are doing their land-of-the-free best and going through the right channels to accomplish their goal. They're not just sitting at home whining about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA, how naive you are. It is called, "because they can." Why do Nez Perce gut out-of-season deer right in town? Because they can; it's a "fuck you" to the white man. (That actually happened over in Idaho if you were wondering) Â They know they can get away with it; they are probably bargaining for something else and using Cave Rock as a bargaining tool. Or they know that they can get some cash from the Access Fund if they make enough trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Hey, why do you clowns even give a shit about preserving a sport climbing crag with routes that start at 5.11 and run up to 5.14, with the bulk of the routes in the 5.12 range? Do you even have anything to lose here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 trask, don't even get me started. I know everybody here, if they are honest with themselves, knows an individual or a family who came to the US, worked like hell, and bootstrapped themselves into a better life. Â I remember in high school in the 70s, a Vietnamese family, must've been 6 kids, descended on our school. The kid in my grade was like all of 'em, failed English for half a year while making A+ in French. Phys Ed was an embarrassing time for him, until the day they broke out the ping-pong tables, and he became a hero. This family's father had been a docter, but was reduced to bagging groceries. Â Fastforward to today. Through hometown contacts, I know that at least 2 of the kids are physicians, and all of them are doing well. Good for them! Hurrah USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA... I think you missed my point. I have studied some, although I am hardly an expert... and that is part of the reason I was drawn to climbing. Â From what I learned, the rock will take care of it's self and it actualy goes against the native religions that I have looked at to asume that any human would know what is better for it. Â There are many people being born now who follow the good red road. There are many ansessters alive now in bodies of diffrent collours to be the rainbow warriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Hey, why do you clowns even give a shit about preserving a sport climbing crag with routes that start at 5.11 and run up to 5.14, with the bulk of the routes in the 5.12 range? Do you even have anything to lose here? Â EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS in our sport pertaining to land rights issues (especially those that go through the court system) creates a PRECEDENT for future action or future situations. If the Washoe are successful at Cave Rock, maybe they'll expand to other areas of Lake Tahoe. Maybe the indians up Devils Tower way might get ideas. Who knows. It's all about freedom, baby. Maybe the precedent created by the Washoe at Cave Rock will give ammunition to groups in other "endangered" areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA - Why must you, and people like you take up the "poor me" crusade on every issue? What are you anyway, a fucking lawyer for the ACLU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Trask, why are you backing the climbing community's "poor me" stance? Poor us, we are losing our crag. The "poor me" argument only seems to bug you when it's coming from a direction you don't like. Â Plus, DFA's shamelessly bleeding heart is naturally drawn to the underdog, the little guy, the dark horse, and yes, the black sheep (once you go black, you'll never go back!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Do you even believe in your spewage, or do you just enjoy arguing? You sound like a f'in attorney* Â *my dad and granddad were attorneys and could argue a guy's ass off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA, I like the dark horse or little guy who gives it his all, and surprises everybody with his tenacity and winning attitude, and goes on to achieve. Not the one who cries and puts his hand out for his whole life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Of course the Doctor believes what he spews! But arguing's kinda fun, too. Say, haven't you been known to do a little trolling on occasion, you know, just for the sake of arguing? Yeah, DFA remembers something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 I've sure seen a big change since the Washington State Welfare laws were changed and one can only remain on welfare for two years. Holy Shmolly, the loafers and sandbaggers actually had to haul their fat asses off the couch and go to work. What a concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 That's just it, Rob, it seems like the Washoe are going through the proper channels to secure what they want, i.e. this chunk of andesite. They're not just sitting outside the Forest Circus office protesting, they're taking appropriate action for the end that they seek. It's not just crying for a handout. Shit, they're not even getting anything material out of it. They're not being given the land, they're not putting in slot machines and charging a fee to get it. Just asking folks to stay off the rox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA... would you feel the same if it were SMITH??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 9, 2002 Author Share Posted December 9, 2002 Sadly DFA we all do. I have climbed there several times and fully agree the place is not so great. My belief is that the "spiritual" aspect is total BS. It is being used cynically. As such my response is at first blush a polite "f%$# you." A moments retrospection tho prevails and makes me think that perhaps F&^^ you isn't such a great response. I think that what needs to be considered is simply precedent. Should our response as climbers be dictated by only the quality of a particular area? If so I think we are being very shortsighted. Whatever the outcome climbers need to at least at first assert their right to climb and have access to rocks on public property. After all without this asertion no compromise is possible merely a docile acceptance of whatever others decide. Overall climbing access will and should be a compromise with other competing interests. Â PP Â Rate me more stars!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Muffy, that's a tough call. While Cave Rock is but a tiny chunk of available climbing surfaces in the Tahoe area, Smith Rock is the only climbing resource of its size and scope within 8 hours' drive. Given that Smith sees gazillions of visitors, DFA would probably endorse the a compromise option rather than opting to give up climbing there altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 (edited) Well said PP Â I don't want to have to break the law to pratice my religion. Edited December 9, 2002 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 If they get cave rock with no comprimise... it will only be a matter of time before alll climbing areas are taken from us. It is not size they seem to be after, but power. Please read the supertopo thred on the same issue. I found it verry enlightening. Â eventualy DFA, you will have to choose between believing in rockclimbing or whatever it is you want to call the rest of it.... your political beliefs or whatever. Most especialy as a sport climber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Well-reasonedly stated, Senor Puget. DFA is a big fan of compromise and diplomacy most of the time, but this time he felt that culture trumped compromise. Whether the cultural argument is truly bullshit as put forth by the Washoe is hard to say (the Doctor did look, by the way, and couldn't find much info on their religious practices and culture in general). Â Also, DFA visited your profile and "You rated this user a 5." We'll see if it ups your star average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 I bumped him up also, in agreement abt grabbin' in the name of the gods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Climbing is restricted on the east side of Mt. Jefferson for the same reason. I don't mind, and I don't need proof Warm Springs views it as holy or not. I say let it be, it's just a cave. Greg, funny how you feel "the liberals" (as you love to categorize them) are pretending to be on some academic high ground when you pull out the "You're so naive" routine. Remember, the native americans are not doing it out of fear, they are refusing to be victims any longer. What a crock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Whatever, Iain. My experience tells me that the Washoe are pulling a political move to gain something (and it probably doesn't have anything to do with religion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Iain's post brings to mind another question. Y'all republiconz seem to be all for unchecked consumption of resources; forests, oil, etc. and seem unconcerned that we'll ever run out of the shit, which may or may not be the case. Why, then, when one fraction of our recreational resources is threatened to be removed from use, you shit blocks of Frank Endo brand gymnastic chalk about it? Â Something tells DFA that if Exxon found oil there or if Bechtel was going to develop it for mining, you wouldn't give a shit about Cave Rock, as it's just a piece of shit sport crag and there's plenty of climbing around there. Or would you be crapping yourself that this was just the first step in big corporations taking away our climbing areas? The day it happens (and sooner or later, it will), DFA will laugh his ass off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 Well you might be able to find that out by asking their opinions about the Congentrix deal at Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted December 9, 2002 Share Posted December 9, 2002 DFA, I am NOO republican. And I would just as vehemitly oppose drilling for oil any where. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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