paranoid yet?

[Off_White]

Uncle Tricky said:

Just remember kids, it's dangerous to be right if the government is wrong!

Uncle, If I've never told you that you then that is purely my oversight.

[freeclimb9]

It occurs to me that the Police can avoid trouble in the future by labeling suspects "enemy combatants".

[Off_White]

Whilst I was amassing frothy quips, you come up with some good research Mr. Freeclimb. Thanks for the info.

[allthumbs]

your frothy quips suck - take yur vitamins troublemaker

[MtnGoat]

"Also, don't say: Islam, bomb, Saddam, terrorist, George Bush is a turnip, fuck America, burn down the government, subvert the right-wing pseudo-democratic Freemason fascist ruling class, or Dick Cheney smells like a goat."

 

Say it all you like.

 

Saying it can't get you thrown in prison for saying it. Saying it, and planning with others to do it, and buying the materials, and picking a time and a target and and setting it all up and being ready to do it.... now that's a different story.

 

You have the right to say whatever you want. You do not have the right to actually do it, not just say it, if it involves blowing up innocents or otherwise violently attacking people.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2002 by MtnGoat

[allthumbs]

I was somewhat hesitant to say this in general open forum, but I think it needs to be said. First, I think we need not be paranoid about this Total Information Agency. The US military is spending a LOT of money on information awareness. Sounds nefarious doesn't it? But it's not. The key to information awareness is situational awareness - crucial in combat. The problem is that combat has such a high tempo with our modern, lethal, and complex systems that we need an information/situation system that can keep up with it. Situational awareness helps you know what is going on around you. You filter out that data that is not useful. Your mission is the key as to what information you think is crucial. Are there enemy on Hill 401? What weapons do they have? What actions have they taken in the last 24 to 48 hours? Is there an estimate of thier strength. Good information and situational awareness can deliver precise and exact information on the following things: where you are, where your buddies are, where the enemy is, and what it is your leaders want you to do. Not really an oversimplification, either. Well, wouldn't it have been nice to have some situational awareness on September 8th instead of September 12th in the fatermath with 20/20 hindsight? But with the degree of technology we have today, especially with IA and SA, you can quickly go into information overload. So you filter the data. You have it collect and or show you what is pertinent to you and your mission.

 

So the bottom line is - I think we worry about nothing. We seem to think the government is all knowing, all seeing, and can invade every crevice of our privacy. This is the same government that has a hard time tying its shoes in the morning and that couldn't coordinate a square dance.

 

trask

[Fairweather]

Trask,

 

You just earned a Five-Star rating from Fairweeather.

[freeclimb9]

I'm paranoid about having John Poindexter employed by the goverment again. That he heads the Information Awareness Office (not the Total Information Agency, BTW) makes me more nervous since the existence of the Office and its initial $10 million dollar budget was kept secret from Congress for several months. Poindexter doesn't exactly have a good track record for being forthwright, or honest.

[mikeadam]

I'd say the bottom line is that if you're not up to anything then you don't have anything to worry about. Being that you're all good Americans, and I believe that if bad turned to worse we would all hold together, then we have nothing to sweat. If you are on the other hand up to something...well...it sucks to be you bullet catcher.

[Scott_J]

Trask, Mike A & Greg, I totally agree with your statements. When I was up to no good in my "younger" years I was paranoid. Nuf said!

[AlpineK]

Well then you shouldn't be scared about registering your gun(s) with the government. I mean your not doing anything bad.

 

I think you guys need to read some history. I suggest reading about McCarthyism. When you read it replace communist with terrorist. A lot of folks had their lives seriously fucked up due to bullshit the government tried to pin on them.

 

When you done with that try reading about the Salem witch trials.

 

Just because this is the 21st century doesn't mean humans aren't able to do some fucked up shit. Also you righty guys might want to think about how you would feel if Bill Clinton had a hand picked person in charge of the department.

[RobBob]

AlpineK, I agree with you, not because I think that there are evildoers in government, but because I believe there are stupid people in all large bureaucracies (especially government). Earnest, stupid people who gather momentum on an issue, and end up running off the track with their zeal.

[Uncle_Tricky]

AlpineK poses a good question for the fans of the 2nd amendment who don't seem to care much for the 4th. I'm interested to hear what Greg, et al have to say about that.

 

I wonder how Hillary Clinton will use the new police state powers we're giving to the executive branch if she's elected in '08. Perhaps Chuck Schumer would be in charge of total information awareness? I mean, a total surveillance society would sure be handy in rooting out that dangerous "vast right wing conspiracy" that was to blame for all her husband's problems.

 

But seriously, I like the Bill of Rights--all of them--not just the certain ones trumpeted by the Democratic party, or the select favorites of the Republican party. I'm happy there's an ACLU out there, and I'm happy there's an NRA.

 

I'm not interested in giving away our constitutionally protected freedoms to anyone, whether their last name is Bush or Clinton or whatever. Because regardless of how much I support or trust the leader of the day, the day WILL come when we will regret what we have lost.

[RobBob]

Just because this is the 21st century doesn't mean humans aren't able to do some fucked up shit.

 

This, AlpineK, is a provocative statement that I agree with wholeheartedly. While I am an optimist, I don't buy this polyanna bullshit about how humanity has 'improved.'

 

Western society is on balance more peaceful, stable, and advanced because world conditions have permitted it to be so during the past 50 years. Wait until we have for instance a major climate change (no, I'm not talking about man-induced change, I'm talking about the inevitable, longterm climate changes that occur), change that causes worldwide agriculture to convulse for a few years. Then we will see barbarian cultures in motion. But better to be a barbarian and a winner than a loser.

[allthumbs]

Just keep in mind that unlike many countries, we have the collective ability to choose our political representatives every few years. Laws can be changed in America. Assholes can be ousted.

 

Like Mike Adam said, if you have nothing to hide, you'll be fine.

[Greg_W]

Tricky - All rights are interrelated: The Second Amendment is the guarantee of the 1st, 4th, and all the other Amendments. Who do you think would be Chuck Schumer's prime target is he could do away with the 4th Amendment? Gun Owners & 2nd Amendment Activists. I agree with what mikeadam said that if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about - to a degree. In light of what Trask was discussing (TIA, etc.), I agree that this is a tactical tool for gathering information on potential enemy activity. That is my understanding of what TIA is for. Granted, individuals such as the Clintons, Schumers, Cuomos, etc. might try and use such a department as a political tool; hopefully safeguards against this will be in-place.

 

Don't worry, when they knock on my door and try and violate my rights, as protected by the 2nd Amendment, I will be the first to invoke my 1st, 2nd, 4th, & 5th Amendments.

 

Here's a good quote that I read the other day: "If we replace vigorous but restrained debate with hate speech,

how long will it be before our nation comes apart at the

seams? ...We are held together by our shared ideas and ideals.

Hate-filled controversy, vicious name-calling, and rabid

partisanship are incompatible with the survival of America as a

free nation." --Dr. David C. Stolinsky

 

 

Have a nice day.

 

Greg W

[iain]

I agree w/ you 100% AlpineK and RobBob. While technology has advanced in the past 2000 years, humans have not biologically evolved at all. A 2002 baby sent back to the 1400's would still grow up to burn people at the stake. Funny how we now expect our kids to have a thorough grounding in Calculus by 11th grade to be competitive internationally, yet it was reserved for the highest level scientists only a 100 or so years ago. Remember Strom Thurman's comments on segregation in the 50's? He's still in office!

[allthumbs]

Iain, that's the goofiest idea you've come up with to date. Of course humans have kept pace with technology. Do you think all these wacky new inventions just pop up out of space? Fuck no; humans invent and build them. Because we can't wipe our own asses as babies means nothing.

[iain]

Not so. We are just building on what others have left before us.

 

As Newton said, "If I see farther than others it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants".

[RobBob]

Good old Sperm Thurmond. Of course he, like several old rascals of his era, turned on a dime when they saw the political climate changing. He hired the first black staffer in SC, I believe. And he personally knows almost everyone in South Carolina.

[iain]

he's probably given birth to a quarter of them.

[RobBob]

Iain is correct. We have our kids reading at 4 or 5 now, and learning how to design buildings with CADD. But they don't on average know as much theory behind that CADD, because there isn't time to learn it...and they sure don't know how to do the math that engineers did with sliderules 50 years ago.

[iain]

But our historical record is the reason we are so dominant on the planet. A snafflehound born in spring has to start from scratch, learning everything all over again. Humans have the benefit of thousands of years of documented mistakes and innovations to absorb when they are born (which might even be why there is more stress and subsequent violence in today's schools with such great expectations).

[freeclimb9]

The comments above that suggest if you're not guilty, you've nothing to fear from aggressive IAO surveillance don't address false accusation, or law enforcement misidentification.

 

[RobBob]

We are leapfrogging forward in the 'technology' department, with probably less and less-grounded operating philosophy. Example: While we in the US debate cloning humans, some Italian claims to already be doing it...to Hell with debate, says he! Italian technology being what it is , he's probably not really doing it, but someone will, long before the balance of the educated world agrees that it's an acceptable thing.

 

What's really sad is that very well-educated scientists can slip into the value-less abyss.