uneven half ropes

[JDCH]

Howdy-

 

So one of my half ropes got a core shot about 2 meters in. I had to cut it.

 

So the question is, do i chop the other one to match, or salvage all the rope I can and deal with the very minor uneven-ness?

 

Thanks

[JosephH]

Chop, chop - if you really use them as doubles.

[bearbreeder]

deal with it ... as long as you know about it and take basic precautions youll be fine ...

 

dont chop it as there is a possibility your chopped rope will be further damaged, and then youll need to buy 2 new halves instead of of 1 ...

 

 

[JosephH]

Huh? Deal with it? That would be evening them up.

 

And the rope could be further damaged? Jesus, I hope so, like cut all the way through at the same length.

 

Wrap the spot with two wraps of sport tape and slice it with a razor knife, melt the end, take off the tape, and you're good.

[genepires]

If you leave them unequal, you will have more rope for rappels. Assuming 60m ropes, you will be able to make 59m rappels. Equaling the lengths gives you 58m rappels. Is the 6ft extra length of rappel matter to you? enough to warrant the un-eveness of the ropes at every belay?

 

I would think that the extra hassle (minor as it is) would not be justified by the extra 6ft of rappel. Now if it was a 50m pair of ropes, I would think differently.

[matt_warfield]

 

Joseph and Gene speak truth. But I will add my 2 cents.

 

Half of something is better than half of nothing.

 

[G-spotter]

Make sure that the longer one is the one you put through the anchor when rapping. I speak from experience.

[wfinley]

I'd say it depends on where you climb. If you're climbing in areas where rope stretching raps are normal then I would say cut the rope with the core shot, throw it in your pile of core-shot-short-ropes and buy another half rope. If you climb in an area where raps tend to be around 50m then cut both of them and deal with shorter raps.

 

I would not cut only one rope -- every year there are numerous accidents that have to do with rappel failures of some kind. Saving $200 is not worth that risk.

[alpine et]

Seems that folks are discussing a tradeoff at the belay to having uneven half ropes. Granted I haven't used this system much, but if the difference is only 2m, can't both climbers tie in with a bit of extra after the figure 8 and thereby making the ropes fairly even for climbing, and then as long as you've ensured you've threaded the long side through the chains, as has been suggested, you could get as much as you can out of the rap?

[Redoubt]

Assuming 60m ropes, you will be able to make 59m rappels. Equaling the lengths gives you 58m rappels. Is the 6ft extra length of rappel matter to you? enough to warrant the un-eveness of the ropes at every belay?

 

I would think that the extra hassle (minor as it is) would not be justified by the extra 6ft of rappel.

Actually his choice is between rapping 59 or 58, so the difference is 3 feet, not 6, which makes it even more sensible to me to even up the ropes.

[max]

deal with it ... as long as you know about it and take basic precautions youll be fine ...

 

Climbig is all about hedging your bets and doing as much as you can to make things safer. Redundancy is a big one in terms of avoiding the Big Chop. I'll tell you my story, how it changed me, and how it applies to your rope situation.

 

I was rapping with a rope that had lost the middle mark. In the process of "finding the middle", I f'ed it up. I started rappeling. I would have rapped off (one) end of my rope if my then girlfriend hadn't yelled "What the f are you doing?!?!". Did I almost die? Yes. Was it because I made a error in judgement and procedure? Yes. BUT, if I had made it easier to tell where the middle was, I would have bbeen less likely to make that very error. I now only use buy bicolor ropes to help reduce the chance of making this sort of mistake.

 

You have a situation that you can mitigate by... oh I didn't even pay too much attention to what everyone above has said because they are all deviations from a "standard". That standard's value is that it is the same (or dang close) every time, so your less likely to mess it up. Do you want to rely on telling every partner to be aware of this variation, every time you climb? My opinion is reduce the risk at every opportunity you can. Two ropes of unequal length are just waiting for an unintentional disaster.

[bearbreeder]

Huh? Deal with it? That would be evening them up.

 

And the rope could be further damaged? Jesus, I hope so, like cut all the way through at the same length.

 

Wrap the spot with two wraps of sport tape and slice it with a razor knife, melt the end, take off the tape, and you're good.

 

deal with it ... all it means is pulling up an extra 6 feet first when the leader set up the belay ... not that hard is it now

 

i mean they are half ropes .... theres also a good chance that theyll never be perfectly even at the belay regardless if theres any sort of traverse

 

i see no reason to chop a perfectly good rope because of 6 feet .... perhaps the OP will want to buy another matching half instead of keep using the chopped one ...

 

who knows .. more options are better

 

as to "disaster" ... its quite simple

 

1. tell yr partner ... they are welcome to use their own ropes if they are uncomfortable ... youre going to tell em anyways if they are both chopped arent ya now ..

 

2. on rap, put a knot if you want ... its not like 2 58m ropes will get you down any better than a 58m and a 60m ...

 

3. if yr cragging on em ... tie knots in the ends

 

youll be just as "disastrous" with 2 58m ones

 

if you can ONLY use bicolour ropes ... you have a real issue im sorry to say ... plenty of people never use em and live just fine

 

 

[JosephH]

Yeah, all my singles are bicolors except my Mammut Supersafes - bicolors are definitely the way to go on singles to help prevent rapping accidents.

 

But on halfs it's not the case and I just don't see a good case for keeping them unequal lengths if you really use them strictly as doubles and use them frequently.

[bearbreeder]

well thats off topic ... but i submit that if you are dependent on duodess ropes to prevent rapping accidents, you are ignoring basic safety procedures IMO ...

 

the OP has 2 types of climbs he will do ...

 

1. climbs with over a 58m rap (lets ignore stretch for now) ... which he wont do regardless ... for now ... but if he decides to do them in the near future he only needs to go out and buy one rope vs 2 if he keeps the length

 

2. climbs with under a 58m rap ... which wont matter if its slightly uneven ... because the raps will be all under his rope length ... and if they arent and he doesnt take the basic precautions regardless of chop/no chop ... hes dead anyways

 

youll almost never end up with perfect lengths at the belay with halves if you use em like they are meant to be used ... if you did youd be using twins

[JosephH]

I'm not suggesting anyone use bicolor as a crutch or as a substitute for common sense, but that it tends to mitigate a certain class of error which otherwise can and does 'slip' under the radar.

 

Coming from back east I've used halfs extensively in the past and buy them and twins in pairs and wouldn't be inclined to be swapping them out for new ones individually. Also most of the time when you are climbing with halfs you aren't doing full pitches, that's more of a singles / twins deal, so losing a couple of meters isn't a big deal and evening them up isn't exactly rocket science.

 

And while I agree the ropes are never 'equal' length at the belay device by definition of what you are doing with halfs, starting out even has a lot going for it as it does when rapping.

[genepires]

Assuming 60m ropes, you will be able to make 59m rappels. Equaling the lengths gives you 58m rappels. Is the 6ft extra length of rappel matter to you? enough to warrant the un-eveness of the ropes at every belay?

 

I would think that the extra hassle (minor as it is) would not be justified by the extra 6ft of rappel.

Actually his choice is between rapping 59 or 58, so the difference is 3 feet, not 6, which makes it even more sensible to me to even up the ropes.

 

damn metric system. math was never my strong point.

[wfinley]

I think this graph from the most recent Accidents in NA Mountaineering is pertinent. According to their article 30% of all climbing accidents happen on the descent. Of that 30%, 29% of accidents are due to uneven ropes.

 

 

Edited to say - I pretty much only climb on doubles and some years back chopped off about 10' of one rope due to a core shot. I climbed locally with that rope for couple more years but bought another rope for when I traveled to places I was unfamiliar with due to the possibility of rope stretching rappels.

Edited November 21, 2012 by wfinley

[bearbreeder]

and how many of those are on doubles ... i would bet that most of it are single ropes where the rapper didnt take basic precautions ie find the middle ...

 

perhaps someone can tell me how exactly two 58m ropes makes you "safer" than one 60m + 58m

 

if the rap is over 58m yr stills screwed no matter what ... and if its under that youre fine as theres no question on double raps as to the "middle mark"

 

you guys DO realize that people rap off 2 different brands of ropes all the time where a "60m" can mean 60,61,62m depending on the rope and brand ... etc ... do you consider that unsafe and how so

 

 

[max]

perhaps someone can tell me how exactly two 58m ropes makes you "safer" than one 60m + 58m

 

If you're speaking from a mechanical standpoint, one end feeds through the device and the whole show unravels. But I'm thinking you get that.

 

From a reasoning standpoint, I think the logic goes that the largest, most published climbing safety book in america (the world?) says one of three main reasons people die rappelling is uneven ropes. I'm no actuary, but I think that means even ropes removes you from a hazard pool.

[bearbreeder]

If you're speaking from a mechanical standpoint, one end feeds through the device and the whole show unravels. But I'm thinking you get that.

 

From a reasoning standpoint, I think the logic goes that the largest, most published climbing safety book in america (the world?) says one of three main reasons people die rappelling is uneven ropes. I'm no actuary, but I think that means even ropes removes you from a hazard pool.

 

if you are rapping more than 58m ... yr dead regardless of whether its 2 58m or a 58m+ 60m ... except this time BOTH ends zip out of your plate ... if its not > 58m neither will zip out ...

 

again can anyone give me an example where 2 58m is safer than a 58m+ 60m on the same rap????

 

or are we just trying to win an intraweb argument here without thinking about it first ...

 

i have a mammut galaxy 10mm and a tendon ambition 10.2mm ... they are both theoretically 60m but there is probably a 2m difference between em form the factory .. are you saying that it is UNSAFE to use both on a 60m rap ?????

 

you do realize that people rap off a rope + 7mm tag line where due tor stretch and sizing there is very likely a 2m+ difference all the time ... are they "unsafe"

 

THINK people ... dont just go "unsafe, unsafe, unsafe"

 

 

[KirkW]

How about this for a solution?

 

I'll give you twenty bucks for the chopped rope and you can put that towards buying yourself a brand new one if this sort of thing keeps you up at night. I'll use it with one of my weirdo 1/2 ropes. Ones about 63m from the factory.Another one's been chopped down to something like 50m, although I'm not exactly sure of the precise length. I've always had trouble getting exact measurements of rubber bands.

 

I'll continue to tie knots in the end of my line on raps that don't end on the ground, keep someone/something tied into both ends when climbing and mark the middle so that I can use it as a single our doubled over when chossmateiring. Regardless what length it is.

 

 

[Redoubt]

Make sure that the longer one is the one you put through the anchor when rapping. I speak from experience.

I wouldn't say that rapping on a 58 and a 60 is unsafe if handled properly, but Dru's point should suggest it is a hassle on routes with multiple raps when one would like to thread the rope you are pulling through the anchor as you pull. If you are using a tag line or some other method that doesn't allow this, so be it. But if I'm rapping on doubles or twins, I want to be able to alternate which rope gets pulled without thinking about one rope being longer than the other. Of course this can be dealt with, and YMMV, but in my climbing world I just don't see any big win by hanging on to that extra 2m of rope on the longer rope. I would have evened up those ropes as soon as I could.

[genepires]

If you're speaking from a mechanical standpoint, one end feeds through the device and the whole show unravels. But I'm thinking you get that.

 

From a reasoning standpoint, I think the logic goes that the largest, most published climbing safety book in america (the world?) says one of three main reasons people die rappelling is uneven ropes. I'm no actuary, but I think that means even ropes removes you from a hazard pool.

 

if you are rapping more than 58m ... yr dead regardless of whether its 2 58m or a 58m+ 60m ... except this time BOTH ends zip out of your plate ... if its not > 58m neither will zip out ...

 

again can anyone give me an example where 2 58m is safer than a 58m+ 60m on the same rap????

 

or are we just trying to win an intraweb argument here without thinking about it first ...

 

i have a mammut galaxy 10mm and a tendon ambition 10.2mm ... they are both theoretically 60m but there is probably a 2m difference between em form the factory .. are you saying that it is UNSAFE to use both on a 60m rap ?????

 

you do realize that people rap off a rope + 7mm tag line where due tor stretch and sizing there is very likely a 2m+ difference all the time ... are they "unsafe"

 

THINK people ... dont just go "unsafe, unsafe, unsafe"

 

 

maybe you should slow down and read what people are saying. Dave is not saying one is safe and the other unsafe. He is saying one is safer than the other. And that difference is very small but still measurable.

 

Also people are questioning whether the inconvenience of having uneven ropes is low enough to warrant keeping uneven ropes.

 

where is anyone saying one situation is unsafe? put down the crack pipe.

[genepires]

I'm no actuary, but I think that means even ropes removes you from a hazard pool.

 

you could be if you wanted to. (actuary, not removal from hazard pool)

[bearbreeder]

Again ... Explain to me exactly how having 2 58m ropes is safer than 60m + 58m on the same rappel

 

The exact situation where the 58s would save you but the 58+60 wont since yr claiming its "safer"