Had Your Flu Shots Yet?

[kevbone]

obtusely clueless?

 

Say that ten times as fast as you can.......

 

Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone

Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone

 

That that that that that that that that that that

[Crux]

obtusely clueless?

 

Say that ten times as fast as you can.......

 

Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone

Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone Kevbone

 

That that that that that that that that that that

What cytokine of way is that to talk? You otta getcher mouth washed out with interferon.

[glassgowkiss]

How about this as biggest bullshit statement of the day? The best is you are contradicting all your earlier posts- good job!

There is nothing about my statement that in any way contradicts anything I've posted up-thread. Are you really this obtusely clueless?

You're really not following along are you? There is absolutely nothing about our knowledge of viruses, better hygiene and better nutrition today that would mean diddlysquat in the face of a novel flu pandemic. Nothing. In fact, about the only real difference is today's transportation system just insures the much more rapid spread of any such a virus. Otherwise there's nothing about our current health or readiness which would halt such a pandemic or lessen its toll.

Just to follow up. In 1918, it was exactly the folks with the most robust immune systems who died. Fully half, or twenty-five million, of the deaths were healthy adults age 20-40 who died of cytokine storms precisely because they were so healthy.

 

of course it's bullshit what you state. Actually modern medicine is good at two things: fixing trauma and controlling mass infections. You can implement isolation and preventive measures (like wearing masks). Travel can get restricted during emergencies as well- vide 9/11. I am sure people nowadays live in open trenches year round eating about one meal every other day. Comparing 1918 pandemic to modern times is just plain stupid. Men between 16 and 40 were on front lines of the conflict, living in trenches for years, mostly eating poorly and under constant stress. Saying that under such circumstances anyone can have a "robust immune system" shows utter lack of understanding basics of human biology and any knowledge of history of the era.

The same way one could argue cholera is also a threat. Yes, we had an outbreak- in Haiti after the huge earthquake. If you represent scientific community of this country, no wonder that 50% of Phd's in the US are held by foreign nationals. Looks like you can't even comprehend basics.

Edited January 16, 2013 by glassgowkiss

[ivan]

tahiti, haiti, practically the same place, eh, mister foreign-phd?

[Crux]

How about this as biggest bullshit statement of the day? The best is you are contradicting all your earlier posts- good job!

There is nothing about my statement that in any way contradicts anything I've posted up-thread. Are you really this obtusely clueless?

You're really not following along are you? There is absolutely nothing about our knowledge of viruses, better hygiene and better nutrition today that would mean diddlysquat in the face of a novel flu pandemic. Nothing. In fact, about the only real difference is today's transportation system just insures the much more rapid spread of any such a virus. Otherwise there's nothing about our current health or readiness which would halt such a pandemic or lessen its toll.

Just to follow up. In 1918, it was exactly the folks with the most robust immune systems who died. Fully half, or twenty-five million, of the deaths were healthy adults age 20-40 who died of cytokine storms precisely because they were so healthy.

 

of course it's bullshit what you state. Actually modern medicine is good at two things: fixing trauma and controlling mass infections. You can implement isolation and preventive measures (like wearing masks). Travel can get restricted during emergencies as well- vide 9/11. I am sure people nowadays live in open trenches year round eating about one meal every other day. Comparing 1918 pandemic to modern times is just plain stupid. Men between 16 and 40 were on front lines of the conflict, living in trenches for years, mostly eating poorly and under constant stress. Saying that under such circumstances anyone can have a "robust immune system" shows utter lack of understanding basics of human biology and any knowledge of history of the era.

The same way one could argue cholera is also a threat. Yes, we had an outbreak- in Haiti after the huge earthquake. If you represent scientific community of this country, no wonder that 50% of Phd's in the US are held by foreign nationals. Looks like you can't even comprehend basics.

In 1918, for the flu that killed more people than did the world war, it didn't matter whether or not a person's immune system was subject to independently compromising factors, such as the case you cite for soldiers who were in the trenches. The epidemiology on this is quite clear: Children and the elderly were comparatively unscathed by this flu. You cite trench-warfare as a confounding outlier that skews all findings about the epidemiology of the 1918 flu, but even in populations completely removed from trench warfare, those who were struck down, blood frothing from their lungs, were of prime age for mounting a robust embrace of life, for defending themselves, for taking on most any objective you can imagine.

 

Typically, it's children and the elderly who are most vulnerable to attack, by anything; and by infection they tend to be the most vulnerable because their immune systems are not yet fully developed (children) or are compromised by the processes of senescence (seniors). To emphasize: With the 1918 flu, this was not the case. This strain killed most those individuals who were most capable of putting up a fight. Paradoxical, yes. Factually true, also yes. And the stark conclusion that follows is this: With influenza, not even the most vital of our species can be counted upon to survive an epic attack.

 

[JosephH]

You're really not following along are you? There is absolutely nothing about our knowledge of viruses, better hygiene and better nutrition today that would mean diddlysquat in the face of a novel flu pandemic. Nothing. In fact, about the only real difference is today's transportation system just insures the much more rapid spread of any such a virus. Otherwise there's nothing about our current health or readiness which would halt such a pandemic or lessen its toll.

 

Just to follow up. In 1918, it was exactly the folks with the most robust immune systems who died. Fully half, or twenty-five million, of the deaths were healthy adults age 20-40 who died of cytokine storms precisely because they were so healthy.

Of course it's bullshit what you state.

Hmmm, ok, now I'm beginning to think stubbornly dense as opposed to obtusely clueless. And believe me, I wish it were all bullshit, unfortunately for all of us it is fact.

 

Actually modern medicine is good at two things: fixing trauma and controlling mass infections. You can implement isolation and preventive measures (like wearing masks). Travel can get restricted during emergencies as well- vide 9/11.

Sigh. Modern medicine is not good at controlling viral infections, even slow-moving, hard to transmit infections like HIV let alone a flat out dashing affair like the flu.

 

Travel can get restricted during emergencies as well- vide 9/11.

Well, sure, but unfortunately it will always be a case of 'too late' and closing the barn door after the horse has already bugged out. By the time anyone had a clue and the situation reached a threshold where the CDC and airlines managed to agree to a cessation of business it would be too late and a done deal. That's because flu has an 'incubation period' prior to showing symptoms of up to four days.

 

 

[video:youtube]rzhKyD19ZEY

 

Check out the SARS spread map below (SARS has up to a ten day incubation period). It only took a very short chain of individuals to do all this. A rural doctor who had unknowingly treated some SARS patients back home came to the big city and infected twelve other guests on the ninth floor of his hotel. One was a tourist from Toronto, one a flight attendant (always a bummer) and - boom - you're off to the races. So, yeah, we can try, but by the time the political will existed to shut down LAX and JFK it would be far too late. Bottom line is flu's incubation period makes it virtually impossible to close the door on before someone gets in and screws the pooch, even when we know what doors to close first. And it only takes one human getting through to do in the continent - do you really think the odds favor successful exclusion by way of travel restrictions? If so, I suggest you not gamble.

 

 

I am sure people nowadays live in open trenches year round eating about one meal every other day. Comparing 1918 pandemic to modern times is just plain stupid. Men between 16 and 40 were on front lines of the conflict, living in trenches for years, mostly eating poorly and under constant stress. Saying that under such circumstances anyone can have a "robust immune system" shows utter lack of understanding basics of human biology and any knowledge of history of the era.

You somehow keep managing to misinterpret events, failing the basic science, and just not getting it. As Crux states, completely healthy twenty-something adults died saddling horses and making meals in Montana. Eye witnesses to the 19818 flu spoke to both the prior health of the victims and to the fact homesteads showed no evidence of having endured prolonged illness. It killed 25 million healthy young adults and did it virtual overnight and in their tracks.

 

How could that possibly be? It happened because that flu strain provoked a violent immune system response. What does that mean? That means the healthier your immune system, the more violent the response. It mainly killed the healthy between the ages of 16 and 65. Believe me, I'm not just making this shit up. Click on Crux's cytokine link just above this post for fuck's sake.

 

The same way one could argue cholera is also a threat. Yes, we had an outbreak - in Haiti after the huge earthquake.

Cholera is a bacteria, and in that case carried to Haiti by untested U.N. Nepalese emergency aid workers whose encampment drained into the Artibonite River. My point exactly; the spread of Cholera is easy to prevent, but we completely failed to do so even in this highly predictable instance where detection, treatment, and prevention is straightforward if almost mundane. Viruses like the flu on the other hand are incredibly difficult if not impossible to stop. You don't stop it, you try to be prepared for its arrival and in the case of a flu pandemic, that's very, very hard to do.

 

If you represent scientific community of this country, no wonder that 50% of Phd's in the US are held by foreign nationals. Looks like you can't even comprehend basics.

I'm not a PhD or scientist of any stripe, just a software engineering horticulturist with a background in microbiology and genetics. Oh, and I also have a degree in post secondary education in which, by any measure of this conversation with you, I have clearly failed.

[ivan]

you might also point out that, where 9/11 could shut down all air traffic for a few hours, trying to do that over a period of potentially months would come w/ incredible penalties - many economies, for example, would quickly begin starving w/o a return to normal trade (ww2 is a fun illustration of this, looking at all of the regions the japanese took, and then we subsequently isolated)

[JosephH]

A very good point from our resident fount of all manner of deviant history.

[ivan]

little understood or appreciated piece of history at that - more people starved to death in ww2 (20 fucking million!) than were killed in direct military action - a japanese admiral, commenting on the war plans that ultimately account for a little less than half of those who starved, likened it onto "sewing the sea with salt"

 

it's been a long time since the global economy could tolerate a long-term cessation of international travel

 

the heavy-weight illness of all time, the black plague, was introduced by international trade - grain ships from the black sea arriving in sicily...

[tvashtarkatena]

Those traffic maps look like a pretty bird.

[JosephH]

 

Great rundown on the global economic impact of the SARS outbreak.

 

 

[glassgowkiss]

Joseph, this is such a pile of crap. Go to your local ICU and see who is there? It's not the flu, which is wrecking the economy, but pandemic of obesity. But there is no vaccine against it. And if you consider cardio-vascular diseases kill 2.5 million a year, why are people worrying about some stupid potential outbreak? I think it would be far more important to actually deal with issue at hand.

[kevbone]

But there is no vaccine against it.

 

Common sense is not a vaccine?

[tvashtarkatena]

Until Americans are HWP to a man, woman, and child, all other health care work must cease.

 

I used to design heart monitors, so I spent a fair bit of time in ICUs at our beta testing hospital. Most of the folks in the ICU were, um...old.

 

AGING EPIDEMIC!!!!!!

 

The cardio nurses did tend to be on the big side, but that might have been more of a Oklahoma thing.

 

I'm not arguing wicha, GGK, that's pointless.

 

Just bored after such a fantastic weekend. Corn snow in Jan?

 

Yup.

 

 

[JosephH]

Joseph, this is such a pile of crap. Go to your local ICU and see who is there? It's not the flu, which is wrecking the economy, but pandemic of obesity. But there is no vaccine against it. And if you consider cardio-vascular diseases kill 2.5 million a year, why are people worrying about some stupid potential outbreak? I think it would be far more important to actually deal with issue at hand.

 

Again, completely dense. I posted that article for the specifics of the economic impact of the SARS outbreak. That you then detour to a irrelevant comparative rant is no surprise. We won't even get into your entirely odd inability to grasp the concept of a pandemic.

[glassgowkiss]

Joseph, this is such a pile of crap. Go to your local ICU and see who is there? It's not the flu, which is wrecking the economy, but pandemic of obesity. But there is no vaccine against it. And if you consider cardio-vascular diseases kill 2.5 million a year, why are people worrying about some stupid potential outbreak? I think it would be far more important to actually deal with issue at hand.

 

Again, completely dense. I posted that article for the specifics of the economic impact of the SARS outbreak. That you then detour to a irrelevant comparative rant is no surprise. We won't even get into your entirely odd inability to grasp the concept of a pandemic.

Dense is your friggin brain! WE ARE HAVING PANDEMIC NOW! it's called FAT FUCKS! And any economic impact from SARS is a chomp change to the economic impact of fat people.

[glassgowkiss]

Until Americans are HWP to a man, woman, and child, all other health care work must cease.

 

I used to design heart monitors, so I spent a fair bit of time in ICUs at our beta testing hospital. Most of the folks in the ICU were, um...old.

 

AGING EPIDEMIC!!!!!!

 

The cardio nurses did tend to be on the big side, but that might have been more of a Oklahoma thing.

 

I'm not arguing wicha, GGK, that's pointless.

That is changing fast. My wife is working in ICU, and there are multiple cases of people with hart issue as young as 28 recently. Having numerous people with cardio-vascular problems in ICU between mid 40 to mid 50's is becoming a new norm fast. And no argument about nurses in general not being in the best shape.

 

[rob]

if I ever get hart issues I'm going to take a plain to the hospital

[rob]

But there is no vaccine against it.

 

Common sense is not a vaccine?

 

Science is hard!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

if I ever get hart issues I'm going to take a plain to the hospital

 

[kevbone]

if I ever get hart issues I'm going to take a plain to the hospital

 

I think the hill would work better.

[glassgowkiss]

if I ever get hart issues I'm going to take a plain to the hospital

 

well, it's not a laughing matter. At St Joe's here in B-ham there was a patient (late 60's), who walked and drove with massive MI for 14 hours. Ended up dying in ICU after 11 days. These are not isolated cases.

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, ya gotta die of somethin' I reckon.

[rob]

I'm never gonna die, I'm gonna live forever

[tvashtarkatena]

If you truly live in the moment, you're already living forever.

 

INSPIRATION FACEBOOK POST. PLEASE LIKE.