born again christians

[denalidave]

I prayed for a beer stronger than Budweiser and PBR and here we have Stone IPA Ruination (7.7% alcohol and 100 International Bitterness Units) for the rich and Stone Reserve (8.1% alcohol) for the poor. Somebody answered my prayers.

Being science based, why wouldn't you just conjure up your own strong beer rather than rely on some force bigger than yourself?

[denalidave]

I have faith that God exists. I have no faith that any religion knows what the hell God wants. That includes irrational people spewing nonsense at the mall, christians, buddhists, whatever. Or the group whose leader went out into the woods and ate some mushrooms. And decided God told him he should sleep with lots of women and collect 10% from all his followers. The fact is that people will lie to get what they want. And religions are the perfect lie, if you dun believe (the lies) you're going to hell or unenlightened or just not worthy of the leaders sperm.

Obviously, your just another nut job cause Rob told us that his faith was broken implying that proves no god exists. Don't even question are own almighty trashie, he will smite the down with useless drivel and self grandiosity. Ever sure to get the final word in, till he changes his story and forgets to cover his tracks. Being Sunday, and we are here in church, lets take a moment to thank spralmighty trashie for allowing us to convert to his way of thinking or risk eternal ridicule, damnation and attending male gay weddings for all of eternity. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)

[denalidave]

I prayed for a beer stronger than Budweiser and PBR and here we have Stone IPA Ruination (7.7% alcohol and 100 International Bitterness Units) for the rich and Stone Reserve (8.1% alcohol) for the poor. Somebody answered my prayers.

Amen! God is great and beer is PROOF God loves us.

[Off_White]

I'll have been married to my Faith for 25 years this August, she's the love of my life.

 

As far as religion goes, mark me down in the column with Tvash and Rob. I don't know about you, but I was born right the first time.

 

 

[rob]

One doesn't have to know all that is out there to know what isn't. Atheism requires no faith whatsoever.

I call Bullshite. How can one say it takes no "faith", yet have no scientific proof (can't proof a negative)? I'm sure in your case, your right. because your mind is not open beyond your own ego (based on your persona here). You have FAITH that you are right and everyone else that believes in God is a sucker (paraphrasing). Call a spade a spade. Atheism takes believing in something you can't proof (faith by definition).

 

"faith" is the belief in god or teachings of a religion. Since atheism don't believe in god, there is no "faith".

 

Faith is also believing in something without proof. Atheism is about needing proof to believe the existence in god. Since none exists (short afterlife experiences and feelings about the nature of the world are not proof), we have atheism and so atheism is not faith based.

 

belief in god requires faith because there is no evidence

belief in science requires no faith. Science believes in only things that can be proved. The day that a bigfoot is put in a cage or a skeleton found, science will believe in bigfoot. A simple visit from the almighty would be enough evidence too but are we not worthy enough a occasional sleep over from Daddy?

You can parse words but you are still assuming something to be true when it can't be verified. Call it faith or non-faith but it still requires a belief, even if that believe is in nothing. It is the non-faith religion for the non religious.

 

The existence of the tooth fairy cannot be proven or disproven, either. That does not mean there is a 50/50 chance, though. I'm certain te tooth fairy doesn't exist. And Santa Claus. Aren't you?

Edited October 21, 2012 by rob

[tvashtarkatena]

I'll have been married to my Faith for 25 years this August, she's the love of my life.

 

As far as religion goes, mark me down in the column with Tvash and Rob. I don't know about you, but I was born right the first time.

 

 

I was born wrong the first time, but its what I got.

[denalidave]

Personally, I've never been "touched" by the tooth fairy so I'm not inclined to believe in him/her. Again, it is much easier to poke fun at someone who believes other than your own line of faith/belief. Probably to help you convince yourself of the unprovable faith you are so certain does not exist in the first place?

 

I could, on the other hand, go on and on and on of how I was touched by the divine. Sure, it could all just be an incredible string of infinite coincidences but when one looks back at all the minutia of how/when/where/what, I'm certain it has been a divine blessing. I don't just sit on my ass and expect life to unfold the way I want it. Rather, I choose to appreciate the force of the universe that can help guide & nurture me along the way. Usually things turn out much better for me when I let go of whatever it is I'm holding on to so desperately. I'm sure you know it alls will deem this as a weakness on my part, but I'm OK with that. I don't need to prove anything to anyone but myself.

[tvashtarkatena]

People often feel the need to respond for me, which I choose to take as a form of flattery.

 

Re Dederek's posting, some thought experiments:

 

The universe is defined as all there is, by definition.

 

Therefore God must exist within the universe.

 

Therefore God must have created the universe, which includes himself (being/gender used for brevity - no implication of the nature of God)

 

This is no different than the paradox of how a Godless universe came to be.

 

Conclusion: Leaving God out of it makes no difference whatsoever.

 

Another one:

 

All that happens in the universe must obey physical laws, even if they are, as yet, unknown to us, or unknowable to us if they are, for example, outside of our light horizon (which an increasing percentage of the universe is due to expansion)

 

Do the workings of God obey physical laws? If not, then one believes in magic. That's cool, but it would be nice if people would just state that directly. Few do.

 

If so, then God is just another undiscovered physical phenomenon. What makes him God, then? He's certainly not a God by any Earthly definition.

 

Look, if you need SOMETHING to pray to, how about the sun? That's about as big and all powerful as it gets round here, and you can actually experience it every damn day. No arguments about whose right or wrong, no oppressive religious hierarchies, no made up bullshit. Nothing wrong with keeping it simple.

 

Me: I'd go with an infinite number of Gods: big ones (the sun, earth, moon), and wee ones (tree frogs, flowers, ticks, viruses). But then, the universe would just be what it is now with some new nomenclature layered on top of it.

 

Exactly.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Usually things turn out much better for me when I let go of whatever it is I'm holding on to so desperately.

 

You just described the Buddhist tenet of letting go of desire. They punted God out of the equation to come up with it, however.

[denalidave]

People often feel the need to respond for me, which I choose to take as a form of flattery.

 

Re Dederek's posting, some thought experiments:

 

The universe is defined as all there is, by definition.

 

Therefore God must exist within the universe.

 

Therefore God must have created the universe, which includes himself (being/gender used for brevity - no implication of the nature of God)

 

This is no different than the paradox of how a Godless universe came to be.

 

Conclusion: Leaving God out of it makes no difference whatsoever.

 

Another one:

 

All that happens in the universe must obey physical laws, even if they are, as yet, unknown to us, or unknowable to us if they are, for example, outside of our light horizon (which an increasing percentage of the universe is due to expansion)

 

Do the workings of God obey physical laws? If not, then one believes in magic. That's cool, but it would be nice if people would just state that directly. Few do.

 

If so, then God is just another undiscovered physical phenomenon. What makes him God, then? He's certainly not a God by any Earthly definition.

 

Look, if you need SOMETHING to pray to, how about the sun? That's about as big and all powerful as it gets round here, and you can actually experience it every damn day. No arguments about whose right or wrong, no oppressive religious hierarchies, no made up bullshit. Nothing wrong with keeping it simple.

 

Me: I'd go with an infinite number of Gods: big ones (the sun, earth, moon), and wee ones (tree frogs, flowers, ticks, viruses). But then, the universe would just be what it is now with some new nomenclature layered on top of it.

 

Exactly.

Why not just continue to believe and pray to the God that has already proven itself to the believer? I'm of the opinion that the "proof is in the pudding". IE - there are infinite examples of those who are doing "God's work" (the nut job in the mall, for instance), but if it harms others in the end, it was the wrong god. Or at the very least, the wrong interpretation of God. On the other hand, if the results of ones faith are "good" (of benefit to society and our world at large), then the "pudding" is good and nutritious. Mother Theresa would be a rare example.

[tvashtarkatena]

Um...because it's a lie? What, I'm supposed to 'hedge my bets' by bullshitting myself?

 

What a great way to make life more meaningless.

 

Another Buddhist tenet it to seek truth. Not really an American thing in this land of maximized self-interest, I realize. One does not always profit by it.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[JasonG]

Heaven forbid we actually quote from Bible regarding the nature of faith. From Hebrews 11:

 

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

 

Under that definition, I think a lot of religious folks, scientists, and even atheists can agree that they all have their own version of "faith".

 

It seems like believing that matter is eternal would require some degree of faith (after all, where did all this stuff in the universe come from?). I can understand not subscribing to a particular religion, but not believing in a God, period, does seem to require a bit of faith.

 

Wasn't the Big Bang a creation event? Infinite matter from an infinitely small place?

Edited October 21, 2012 by JasonG

[tvashtarkatena]

Islam is the 'truest' God centric religion in the world. There is zero credible evidence that Christ existed, on the contrary, he's most likely a recycled Osiris-style myth - common as dirt for the time.

 

Mojo is, at least, an actual historical figure. I don't know about the God part, but at least the Muslims have that to hang their headgear on. Philosophically, though, Islam is as bankrupt as any other 'chosen one' idea.

 

Hinduism is way closer to the mark as far as how the universe actually works. You've got your builders, you've got your destroyers - the light, the dark, whatever. It's all really one thing.

[denalidave]

Um...because it's a lie? What, I'm supposed to 'hedge my bets' by bullshitting myself?

 

What a great way to make life more meaningless.

 

Another Buddhist tenet it to seek truth. Not really an American thing in this land of maximized self-interest, I realize. One does not always profit by it.

Obviously, I aint no rocket surgeon but I'm not hedging my bets. Rather, I am relying on a force that has already proven and manifested itself in my own personal experience. You can give me all the data points, chinese proverbs, etc, but it won't change my own personal experience. Again, if you can PROVE that God is not real and never touched any human life, then it would indeed be a lie.

 

As for you, your supposed to continue being the almighty here on CC, condemning and belittling anyone that disagrees with your "facts". You can't be wrong, ever. That seems just as delusional as the nut jobs that believe God exists.

[tvashtarkatena]

Heaven forbid we actually quote from Bible regarding the nature of faith. From Hebrews 11:

 

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

 

Under that definition, I think a lot of religion and science and even atheists can agree that they all have their own version of "faith".

 

Seems like believing that matter is eternal requires some faith (after all, where did all this stuff in the universe come from?). I can understand no subscribing to a religion, but not believing in a God does require a bit of faith.

 

Wasn't the Big Bang a creation event? Infinite matter from an infinitely small place?

 

1) I don't get definitions for words from the Bible. It get them from the dictionary.

 

2) Who says matter is eternal? Since man doesn't have a clue about the actual nature of time itself, it would be impossible to make that statement with any scientific credibility.

 

3) The word 'creation' need not have a religious meaning, simply because current translations of the Bible employ it. See #1. I just 'created' a huge steaming pile. Proof of the divine?

 

4) Most pseudoscience statements such yours this spring from a lack of basic knowledge about the actual science referenced. Yours is no exception.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[JasonG]

I'm sensing a lot of anger Pat. I'm sorry.

[tvashtarkatena]

Um...because it's a lie? What, I'm supposed to 'hedge my bets' by bullshitting myself?

 

What a great way to make life more meaningless.

 

Another Buddhist tenet it to seek truth. Not really an American thing in this land of maximized self-interest, I realize. One does not always profit by it.

Obviously, I aint no rocket surgeon but I'm not hedging my bets. Rather, I am relying on a force that has already proven and manifested itself in my own personal experience. You can give me all the data points, chinese proverbs, etc, but it won't change my own personal experience. Again, if you can PROVE that God is not real and never touched any human life, then it would indeed be a lie.

 

As for you, your supposed to continue being the almighty here on CC, condemning and belittling anyone that disagrees with your "facts". You can't be wrong, ever. That seems just as delusional as the nut jobs that believe God exists.

 

I'd say this has a lot more to do with the inner workings of your personality and self esteem than my or anyone else's postings here, but hey, that's just a theory. No, after observing your words and deeds, I don't respect you too much, but I wouldn't generalize that to anyone else here.

 

I presented some of my beliefs and thought experiments. Go nuts with them or not. Not really my issue.

 

My only issue with Kristians is their attempt to force their beliefs on others through the rule of law, as I've clearly. My belief that their belief's are kooky is an opinion, something we're all entitled to.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

One time, on LSD, I had the personal experience of reading minds. I was SO SURE it was real.

 

My point is, be careful believing something when your only evidence is subjective feeling. Many people KNOW homosexuality is wrong, for example, and no amount of data points will convince them otherwise.

 

Humans are wired for this kind of shit, and you need to be wry careful about that sort of thing. Question yourself more than anything else, because your brain will lie to you and trick you. It's how fundamentalists are made -- they KNOW and nothing will persuade them. It's anti-science, anti-reason, and is really dangerous.

 

Feelings are the absolute worst kind of evidence, for anything. Be skeptical!

 

Cheers, man. You seem OK, so I want to look out for you and keep you from a deadend path I myself barely escaped from. Belief and wonder at thr possibility of God is fine, but when you start saying that no amount of data points can change you because of how you feel, I'm worried.

[denalidave]

Heaven forbid we actually quote from Bible regarding the nature of faith. From Hebrews 11:

 

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

 

Under that definition, I think a lot of religious folks, scientists, and even atheists can agree that they all have their own version of "faith".

 

It seems like believing that matter is eternal would require some degree of faith (after all, where did all this stuff in the universe come from?). I can understand not subscribing to a particular religion, but not believing in a God, period, does seem to require a bit of faith.

 

Wasn't the Big Bang a creation event? Infinite matter from an infinitely small place?

Exactly. I have a lot more respect for the agnostics as they are not sure either way. That seems reasonable. But the athiest laughs and mocks the beleiver, all the while having "faith" that they know all there is to know about the workings of the universe. Or at the very least, what is not in the farther reaches of the galaxy or inner sanctum of the human soul. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[Choada_Boy]

Arguing with zealots is a waste of time. There is not a single thing you can say to a zealot that will get them to consider the fact of the life-long brainwashing, and/or ignorance of the true facts of the physical world, that created and allows the persistence of their religious beliefs.

 

Arguing with them only serves to give them the opportunity to "assume the Christ Pose" as they too become persecuted and crucified for their beliefs. I do not oblige them in this and they typically find it infuriating.

 

I would have stood next to the nutcase and begun my own monologue: a graphic and detailed depiction of man on man sodomy. Once, for fun, I stood next to a nutcase going off on sodomites at Bumbershoot and just babbled random gibberish. He was not happy

 

Re: The Bible. As David Cross would say, the Bible was written 2000 years ago, when we were EVEN DUMBER than we are now. My Bible is THIS

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm sensing a lot of anger Pat. I'm sorry.

 

I enjoy a good debate. I'm enjoying myself right now. If you grew up the way I did, this would be a healthy norm. Different styles make the world a more interesting place.

 

Sure, I get tired of hearing the same old atheism=faith, blah blah arguments from folks who simply don't understand the philosophy. Believers can't imagine not believing, and I dont' blame them for that - it can be a roughy at first, so they extrude it through a template they're familiar with so they believe they've digested it. Its a human thing.

 

The best argument I've ever seen for the existence of God was a scene from a Bollywood film where a beautiful Indian women is singing a love song to her god. The deep feeling she conveyed, the pure, uncut beauty, was transcendent. So different from the mean spirited Kristianity so popular today in our own culture, and so much more moving.

 

I didn't run off and become a Hindu, but my life was a little better after having experienced that.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[denalidave]

One time, on LSD, I had the personal experience of reading minds. I was SO SURE it was real.

 

My point is, be careful believing something when your only evidence is subjective feeling. Many people KNOW homosexuality is wrong, for example, and no amount of data points will convince them otherwise.

 

Humans are wired for this kind of shit, and you need to be wry careful about that sort of thing. Question yourself more than anything else, because your brain will lie to you and trick you. It's how fundamentalists are made -- they KNOW and nothing will persuade them. It's anti-science, anti-reason, and is really dangerous. Shouldn't that hold true for the athiest, too?

 

Feelings are the absolute worst kind of evidence, for anything. Be skeptical!

 

Cheers, man. You seem OK, so I want to look out for you and keep you from a deadend path I myself barely escaped from. Belief and wonder at thr possibility of God is fine, but when you start saying that no amount of data points can change you because of how you feel, I'm worried.

Yes, I've been wrong many times when I trusted my feelings. That is much different than a life long experience of God working God's mojo in one's life. I just see a lot of irony in atheists saying they know for certain of something that cannot be ascertained, yet mock and dis anyone that has a different personal experience. Show me one data point PROOVING there is no God and that God can't/won't interact with us humans and I will consider the data.

 

In fact, I've tried to deny God existed in my life, only to find God again and again, whether I wanted to admit it or not.

 

I'm on no more of a dead end path than you non believers. I can accomplish just about anything I set my mind to. It's good to know I have the universe covering my back in the big picture.

[Choada_Boy]

You demonstrate what seems to be total ignorance of how Science works. It must be easy to not have to think...

[tvashtarkatena]

I would recommend taking a logic 101 class. Your 'can't prove a negative' is exactly the argument Bone uses to support his various conspiracy theories. It's the logic used to support ALL conspiracy theories, in fact.

 

Unfortunately, it violates one of the most basic tenets of logic. Hence, the Tooth Fairy comments.

 

Anyway, this is getting repetitive, and I include myself in that. I think I'll go off and play doctor with my favorite local goddess.

Edited October 21, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[denalidave]

You demonstrate what seems to be total ignorance of how Science works. It must be easy to not have to think...

As stated earlier by another poster, even science requires a degree of faith and can be manipulated to achieve the desired results. Many of our current scientific theories will tumble once we learn more, just as they have in the past. We think we have scientific proof of whatever (and often we do), yet the more we learn the more we realize how little we really know. I'm all for science but that cannot take away from what I have already personally experienced in my journey through life.

 

I guess you should put Einstein in that category too, after all, he believed in God and thought he proved it with E=MCsquared. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

 

I can't believe this, but I gotta agree with trashie as it's time for ya'll to keep on with your faith in nothingness and I in my faith in a all powerful force in our universe. Peace out.