Fast N Lite Packs

[wdietsch]

the Cilo packs don't come with manuals anymore. They have gone to a series of videos on YouTube to replace the written manuals.

 

A pack that comes with a manual / video?

 

Next thing you know the'll be putting instructions on condom wrappers.

[B Deleted_Beck]

This is the fucking Gravitrex edition, dude.

 

Don't embarrass yourself with anything else on the trail.

[CaleHoopes]

Ben, make sure you attach the straps correctly or they don't "stay" where you put them. I spent a good time earlier last year not doing it right. Once I stopped in a store and looked at how it was supposed to be done, and the straps rock a hell of a lot more.

 

Also, as far as "strap" configuration... I just figure it out before a trip. I will often leave many of the straps at home (don't need the weight) and just pre-figure out my system.

 

I've climbed with the pad & stay, just the pad, a different pad, no pad and the air pad. I've had fairly decent results with weights up to 45. I really haven't pushed the 60L past that yet - why do I need more than 45 lbs worth of crap?!?! That stupid 10 lb toothbrush is just a damn luxury item.

[Luzak00]

CiloGear is a modern pack. The strap system is innovative, and you get used to it quickly. Really allows you to fine tune your specific carry. Materials are great.

 

Randy at Cold Cold World is old school. Simple packs, bomber materials and construction. He'll use any fabric you can supply (mine is made of VX-21, which Cilogear uses in their packs as well) and does custom work so you can tweak the feature set and get a perfectly fitting pack.

 

Different design philosophies at work. Both have seen some of the greatest climbs accomplished. Super.

[OlympicMtnBoy]

Good points above, I've been really happy with my 60 liter Cilo pack for carrying bigger loads.

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the MEC option though. $40 CAD for a light, 30 liter, no frills pack that seems to meet the original criteria. http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/Daypacks/PRD~5008-503/mec-alpinelite-30-daypack.jsp

 

I've used mine for a variety of trips and as my backcountry skiing pack and thought it worked pretty well. Fairly durable and simple and cheap (if you are passing through Canada for something).

[Coldfinger]

Have the Summit Rocket 40 and love it, but then again it is NOT an everyday use pack.

 

Big plusses are the waist belt that is very comfortable and also both light and bulk free (reminds me of stretchy soft shell), the weight, the simplicity, fantastic helmet clearance, and especially the use of a sleeping pad as part of the frame. Not only does that save the weight of a pad, but also as I bring a light thermarest it serves to protect that from puncture.

 

Roll top is a big plus.

[B Deleted_Beck]

Did I just buy from or sell you something, coldfinger?

 

Why not every-day? Durability?

[Good2Go]

I had a terrible experience with Cilo and feel compelled to warn others. Cilo has great designs but their marketing is a bunch of hype and their customer service and warranty support is even worse. I bought two packs from them in the past two years (a summit pack made out of NWD material and a 30L made out of the cheaper material). The summit pack came with a tube of SeamGrip and a note suggesting that they recommend sealing the seams. I didn't bother sealing it, as I did not expect to use it in the rain (or care if it was waterproof in any way). What the note did not say however, is that the pack would totally fall apart without the sealing. Sure enough, that summit pack began getting little spider cracks in the material after just a couple uses. Those cracks turned into tears (not emanating from the seams, I might add) within half a dozen uses. I tried to get Cilo to give me a new pack or fix the one I had, but they said no warranty if you don't seam seal the pack. (I even sent them the pack to inspect. They never responded and did not return the pack.) That warranty condition was never stated on their web site or in the note that came with the pack (if it had I would have sent it back, because I'm not willing to pay $150 for a summit pack that's not fully finished). I tried to address the issue w/ Cilo, but after telling me no warranty, they just stopped responding to my emails. Here's what Cilo says about that pack on their site:

 

"The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going."

 

Based on my experience, this is a total misrepresentation.

 

It's also worth mentioning that I have used the the 30L on a few alpine rock climbs (e.g., North Ridge of Stuart this summer) and in my experience it is very fragile. The bottom of mine is now a massive patchwork of repairs.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Good2Go

[wetslide]

I don't have a cilo gear pack but I met Graham and talked to him at outdoor retailer, even though I wasn't a retailer he spent a few minutes talking about his packs and showing me products. Can't speak to their customer service other than that they seem to be nice people.

That being said, I had a Jam 2 from golite that served me well for a number of years. Now I lean more towards BD and dead bird.

I tend to carry a heavier pack that has options such as frame support.

That, and I tend to not go with the trends- and cilo gear seems to dominate high end alpinism- not that it is without justification.

I tend to go for better hardware or clothes before thinking about dropping a couple bills on a backpack.

[OlympicMtnBoy]

Not on the original topic at all, but I had an early version Cilo pack and I had a seam start to rip where one of the shoulder straps was sewn in. I took some pics of it and emailed them. Within a week or so Graham sent me a brand new pack (newer version too), minus the back panel and top pocket which I could reuse from the old one. Cleary your mileage may vary.

[ADKMan]

From my experience making quality cutting edge packs is Graham's #2 priority. His #1 priority seems to be having a good time.

 

Response time for e-mail / phone messages ranged from 2 -10 days when I was "trying" to buy my pack. When I asked about some "minor" changes I was told that it would be $100 per hour with a minimum of a $100 charge. I was charged double shipping on my order and it took over a month to receive what turned out to be a "standard" pack.

 

All of this being said the pack I received appears to be a well designed (again, except for the "goofy" strap system), lightweight pack. Sometimes "lightweight" is another way of saying "it won't last forever".

Edited October 25, 2012 by ADKMan

[tvashtarkatena]

The best accessory for a pack is a sewing machine. I just expect to buy packs, repair them, destroy them, and buy another one. There aren't many things you can do to a pack that even a minimal field repair kit can't handle, save retrieving its yard saled contents from the bottom of a schrund or something.

 

I like the BD Speeds for weight, comfort, simplicity, and value. Plus, the one time I contacted them for repair advice they did a very involved repair gratis and unsolicited. Dealing with their service folks was more like dealing with a local shop than a big company.

[Jim]

My take - cilogear, interesting, low weight, not durable, lacking in some essential design features, and an over-complicated strap system. I sold my 60L within a year. Good points - it carried well. Friggin' expensive though.

 

I'm a fan of CCW now. Straight-forward, functional design. Great one-on-one service; they can make it the way you want it. Inexpensive and durable. I use it for skiing and climbing. My only wish is that I would have tried these folks earlier.

[G-spotter]

Light, cheap, durable. Pick two.

[Jim]

Light, cheap, durable. Pick two.

 

CCW -all three

[B Deleted_Beck]

I had a terrible experience with Cilo and feel compelled to warn others. Cilo has great designs but their marketing is a bunch of hype and their customer service and warranty support is even worse. I bought two packs from them in the past two years (a summit pack made out of NWD material and a 30L made out of the cheaper material). The summit pack came with a tube of SeamGrip and a note suggesting that they recommend sealing the seams. I didn't bother sealing it, as I did not expect to use it in the rain (or care if it was waterproof in any way). What the note did not say however, is that the pack would totally fall apart without the sealing. Sure enough, that summit pack began getting little spider cracks in the material after just a couple uses. Those cracks turned into tears (not emanating from the seams, I might add) within half a dozen uses. I tried to get Cilo to give me a new pack or fix the one I had, but they said no warranty if you don't seam seal the pack. (I even sent them the pack to inspect. They never responded and did not return the pack.) That warranty condition was never stated on their web site or in the note that came with the pack (if it had I would have sent it back, because I'm not willing to pay $150 for a summit pack that's not fully finished). I tried to address the issue w/ Cilo, but after telling me no warranty, they just stopped responding to my emails. Here's what Cilo says about that pack on their site:

 

"The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going."

 

Based on my experience, this is a total misrepresentation.

 

It's also worth mentioning that I have used the the 30L on a few alpine rock climbs (e.g., North Ridge of Stuart this summer) and in my experience it is very fragile. The bottom of mine is now a massive patchwork of repairs.

 

Damn, dude... this sounds hardcore. I suspect there was a lot of neglected responsibility on your own part... were you a total ass about everything? Did they ask you questions that you never answered, therefor they never could come to a conclusion on the best way to handle your warranty claim? Did you give the pack back to them completely fucked up (not just the torn seams)? etc...?

 

It's been my experience that people are never innocent when they report heinous accounts of companies being almost abusive to their patient, forgiving buyers. And every account I've seen of people having problems with Cilo packs, most of which damage due to accidents/abuse, Cilo has either fixed it for free or just swapped out for a new pack. Therefor, I think your account isn't the full story.

[Good2Go]

I had a terrible experience with Cilo and feel compelled to warn others. Cilo has great designs but their marketing is a bunch of hype and their customer service and warranty support is even worse. I bought two packs from them in the past two years (a summit pack made out of NWD material and a 30L made out of the cheaper material). The summit pack came with a tube of SeamGrip and a note suggesting that they recommend sealing the seams. I didn't bother sealing it, as I did not expect to use it in the rain (or care if it was waterproof in any way). What the note did not say however, is that the pack would totally fall apart without the sealing. Sure enough, that summit pack began getting little spider cracks in the material after just a couple uses. Those cracks turned into tears (not emanating from the seams, I might add) within half a dozen uses. I tried to get Cilo to give me a new pack or fix the one I had, but they said no warranty if you don't seam seal the pack. (I even sent them the pack to inspect. They never responded and did not return the pack.) That warranty condition was never stated on their web site or in the note that came with the pack (if it had I would have sent it back, because I'm not willing to pay $150 for a summit pack that's not fully finished). I tried to address the issue w/ Cilo, but after telling me no warranty, they just stopped responding to my emails. Here's what Cilo says about that pack on their site:

 

"The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going."

 

Based on my experience, this is a total misrepresentation.

 

It's also worth mentioning that I have used the the 30L on a few alpine rock climbs (e.g., North Ridge of Stuart this summer) and in my experience it is very fragile. The bottom of mine is now a massive patchwork of repairs.

 

Damn, dude... this sounds hardcore. I suspect there was a lot of neglected responsibility on your own part... were you a total ass about everything? Did they ask you questions that you never answered, therefor they never could come to a conclusion on the best way to handle your warranty claim? Did you give the pack back to them completely fucked up (not just the torn seams)? etc...?

 

It's been my experience that people are never innocent when they report heinous accounts of companies being almost abusive to their patient, forgiving buyers. And every account I've seen of people having problems with Cilo packs, most of which damage due to accidents/abuse, Cilo has either fixed it for free or just swapped out for a new pack. Therefor, I think your account isn't the full story.

 

You're wrong Ben. I didn't do anything to cause Cilo to treat me worse than their other customers. When I first noticed the damage I sent Cilo an email (see copy below) with a bunch of pictures of the damage to my pack, fully expecting them to just tell me how to get warranty coverage. As you can see, I didn't complain or insult them in my message, just a normal warranty coverage request. I certainly did not anticipate that they would deny coverage. They took weeks to respond to that message, and when they finally did, they commented that it was too bad I didn't seam seal the pack, because w/out that no warranty. Their suggestion was to put packing tape over the tears in the NWD fabric and then paint SeamGrip over that (which would have resulted in painting about 50% of pack with glue - seriously). I responded that (1) they never mentioned seam sealing as a condition to warranty, (2) the material was also failing in the body, well away from seams (i.e., there is warrantable damage that had nothing to do with seam sealing) and (3) I'd barely gotten any use out of the pack. I also sent them more pictures to support those claims. They never responded following that message, notwithstanding that I sent them the pack at my own cost, so they could inspect it and followed up with another message (they never responded to that message or returned the pack - even after, as a last resort, I threatened to take them to small claims court if they didn't respond). I would also note that you can find other complaints about them if you do a little searching online and I got the same story from a sales guy at Feathered Friends (who told me that some of their customers had the same problem with Cilo, and they're now trying to tell all Cilo buyers at FF that they have to seam seal or no warranty - EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT MENTIONED ON THEIR WEB SITE OR IN THE NOTE THEY SEND WITH THE TUBE OF SEAM GRIP). I got screwed by Cilo Ben, plain and simple.

 

Here's what I said in my initial warranty request email:

 

 

Hey Cilo,

 

I bought a 20L NWD Worksack from you last July (see attached email for order receipt) and it has totally fallen apart, after not many uses I might add. Below are some pictures of the damage. Pretty much has just started pulling apart where the shoulder straps are attached at the top. I'd like to return it for a new one on warranty, but I suspect that the NWD material may be ill thought out or defective for the intended purpose (rock climbing summit pack). For reference, I've retired similar Black Diamond and Arcteryx packs that had far less wear and damage, after many, many more uses. Please advise.

 

Here are some pics of the damage.

 

[B Deleted_Beck]

They still never got back to you after threatening to sue? How long ago was this?

[Good2Go]

My first email to Cilo was at the end of April 2012, they responded about 3 weeks later, I responded to that message the same day. They failed to respond, so in June I sent them my pack along with a letter, re-stating the facts and asking for a response. I have never heard anything back since, nor have they sent back the pack (which was unusable, unless I covered in packing tape and dipped it in SeamGrip). I wound up buying a BD summit pack at Feathered Friends (which is when the sales guy told me about other people having the same issue) for $70 to replace the Cilo, which has turned out to be way more durable.

 

BTW - I am sharing this experience/info not to convince you Ben, or anyone else for that matter, that I am right, but rather to make sure folks have the full story about Cilo before investing in their packs, especially ones made our of NWD. If you buy a Cilo pack, you will have to perform what seems to me is a key manufacturing step (seam sealing) or it will fall apart and there will be no warranty coverage. They don't mention that in their marketing hype.

[B Deleted_Beck]

They do state at the bottom of their return policy that they don't return the NWD packs. But if they just completely failed to even address the issue, that's bullshit.

 

I've sent them a couple emails... they certainly take their time getting back to you, but who knows why. I've experienced long turnover on emails with other small, specialty companies also. Just seems to be the nature of small, specialty companies.

 

Have you tried calling?

[kevino]

I'll start by saying that from my experience in retail/customer service/healthcare, the consumer/patient is always right. So the fact that cilogear isn't responding to your email is bad customer service. With that being said, every time I email them I get a quick response, including earlier this week.

 

As a consumer you should also know about the company. On their about us page they explicitly state to call them. Additionally, in bold, it says we do not accept returns on NWD packs.

http://www.cilogear.com/info.html

 

And finally, my NWD 20L is three or four years old and I have abused the shit out of it, and the only hole is in one of external mesh pockets about a granite chimney. But then again I seam sealed mine.

Edited October 27, 2012 by kevino

[Sol]

A note on durability: my cilo 30L standard has seen 250+ days, i've done some minor repairs to the bottom but that's cuz I stick my whippit inside the pack when descendng on my splitboard.

[Good2Go]

I wasn't asking for a refund. I asked them to repair or replace the $150 pack that I'd bought from them a few months earlier that I'd only used about 6 times. The pack was never abused. I never climbed chimneys with it, nor was it ever hauled. The main cause of the damage seemed come from stuffing it into a bigger pack (to carry it up to a wall, so I could use it as a lightweight climbing pack). The spider lines appeared when the material was folded in any manner. My initial thought was that it was a bad batch of material and Cilo would probably be eager to find out what caused such a premature failure. Obviously, I was wrong.

 

And, I'm glad to hear you guys have had better experiences with Cilo than I did, but I have no fucking idea what that has to do with my story. I'm telling you the straight up truth about my experience. My pictures tell the tale. Sorry if it shatters your illusions about one of your favorite brands. I'm sure you would be equally pissed if they did the same thing to you.

[Coldfinger]

Did I just buy from or sell you something, coldfinger?

 

Why not every-day? Durability?

 

Thanks again but I can't remember what you got.

 

As for the MH Summit Rocket 40 not being an everyday pack, two points:

 

1. It uses a very lightweight cordura ripstop on the side panels, and imho and in my experience with that material, it just isnt designed for everyday use. Got a MH summit rocket trl that has a much more durable but still light ripstop that i go everyday and craggin with.

 

2. It isnt designed as a general, crag or everyday pack anyway. I definitely have the need for a light, comfortable and climbing oriented load hauler with the Tetons and Wind River Range out my backdoor, so it works great for that. Good fast and light multiday hiking pack too.

[Coldfinger]

I have no fucking idea what that has to do with my story. I'm telling you the straight up truth about my experience. My pictures tell the tale. Sorry if it shatters your illusions about one of your favorite brands. I'm sure you would be equally pissed if they did the same thing to you.

 

I have no fucking idea what you are doing in hijacking this thread!

 

Maybe the lesson here would be to become a little more concise and a little less hectic in your communications. Look at things from other peoples' viewpoints maybe?

 

You know, maybe not clutter up a pack discussion with hectic spewing, maybe the rest pf us have better things to do, so just be calm and keep it quick.

 

You lost me with your threats to sue over a friggin' pack just cause somebody can't make sense of or even want to deal with your temper tantrums.