What's Up With Ft. Lewis?

[kevbone]

GOP types start illogical wars and their campaign donors make billions

 

 

Then the Dems continue to fund these wars.

[Coldfinger]

Well that's kinda like that buddy we all have who always starts shit that the rest of us have to finish.

 

Mission accomplished

[Coldfinger]

GOP types start illogical wars and their campaign donors make billions

 

 

Then the Dems continue to fund these wars.

 

Stock fraud.

[Coldfinger]

Wall St. not Ft. Lewis

[KaskadskyjKozak]

GOP types start illogical wars and their campaign donors make billions

 

 

Then the Dems continue to fund these wars.

 

Vote Ron Paul!!

[Coldfinger]

GOP types start illogical wars and their campaign donors make billions

 

 

Then the Dems continue to fund these wars.

 

Vote Ron Paul!!

 

Ron Paul votes!

 

Guess after all he's hedging on the Tea Party's return to gold........

[ivan]

ALL adult age males need to register for mandatory military service. The draft needs to be reinstated. Period - end of story. The days of war being an abstraction because you KNOW you won't have to go, therefore you do not need to invest yourself need to come to an end.

 

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

i like the old british model - all volunteer army but holy shit we're gonna make it so fucking shitty in this here 'society to be poor you won't have much choice if ya wanna eat

[ivan]

dog knows, the russians n' french n' israelis and such using the conscription scheme can't quite carry the banner for being peaceful

[mattp]

ALL adult age males need to register for mandatory military service. The draft needs to be reinstated. Period - end of story. The days of war being an abstraction because you KNOW you won't have to go, therefore you do not need to invest yourself need to come to an end.

 

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

 

I agree. Totally.

[ivan]

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

 

I agree. Totally.

then why did france cling so desperately to empire? russia still?

 

i agree w/ the both of you, btw - i'm just not optimistic it'll produce more than more cold war-style vietnams n' koreas, w/ governments just as ready if not more so to bullshit and spew propaganda

 

for The Army as an institution, of course, they don't want pissed-off draftees, and holy shit, who would? the morale of conscription armies are usually horrible, for the very reason that wicked wars continue, and they (the draftees) have no choice but to participate in that which they couldn't prevent and still can't, despite maybe some desperately stupid action like what sgt bales just did.

 

if i recall from a few pages back, that's what i like about joseph's scheme, as it quickly forces sweat-equity from the public

[rob]

ALL adult age males need to register for mandatory military service. The draft needs to be reinstated. Period - end of story. The days of war being an abstraction because you KNOW you won't have to go, therefore you do not need to invest yourself need to come to an end.

 

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

 

That worked really well in the past, that's why we never had crazy stupid wars nobody wanted until 9/11 right? Fucking genius

[dougd]

ALL adult age males need to register for mandatory military service. The draft needs to be reinstated. Period - end of story. The days of war being an abstraction because you KNOW you won't have to go, therefore you do not need to invest yourself need to come to an end.

 

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

 

I agree. Totally.

 

Military drafts are best instituted to fill needs when demand for warm bodies exceeds supply of volunteers. It is not true in my opinion, that wiser decisions regarding wars are any more likely with a draft in play. The "all volunteer" US Military taken to Iraq by bush jr being only the latest example of the potential for boneheaded decisions by so called leaders... Let's not forget that same man evading the draft during the Vietnam war. It's relatively easy to do with the right connections... That won't change.

 

Having said that I must say some of the finest I served with during the latter part of the Vietnam era were draftees. They didn't run to Canada, and they were drafted into the US Marines. Yes they were disappointed, to say the least, but, they got over it. Comes right down to it, you fight for each other. Not a flag or leader or what ever. Might start out as something like patriotism for most, but when the shit hits the fan it always boils down to your survival, and the one's with you. The one's that need you to do your job.

 

Ivan's right, the ever expanding pool of people living in poverty in America will ensure an adequate supply of warm bodies.

 

d

[mattp]

I don't argue that a draft will end poor decision making, and I bet Serenity does not either.

 

But if there were a mandatory draft, and if there were no college deferments or any other way that the policy makers kids might be excused from service, they'd probably undertake a different analysis.

 

The decision makers might also undertake a different analysis if they had to enact a budget for wars undertaken.

Edited March 23, 2012 by mattp

[ivan]

if there were a mandatory draft, and if there were no college deferments or any other way that the policy makers kids might be excused from service, they'd probably undertake a different analysis.

 

that's true, but the history of our republic since the first use of conscription in the civil war clearly shows the draft doesn't get fair until a deeply unpopular war's been going on for years and years - the vietnam war was on the wane well before the draft scheme generally got truly democratic, and even then, as the shrub showed, it could still be circumvented by the uppermost echelons who so heavily occupy the seats of government.

[mattp]

No argument there, Ivan. On average, the elite don't go to jail when they commit crimes, don't pay their share of taxes, and don't fight in wars. I don't think that is likely to change.

[Phil K]

Much as it surprises me, I have to halfway agree w/ Serenity here. (There's a first time for nearly everything, apparently.) Having a draft, one that young Georgie W or Darth Cheny types couldn't so easily duck out of would probably make the old white guys in DC less likely to unleash the dogs of war. It would certainly change the dynamic of opposition within the general population.

 

One of the biggest reasons we saw tens of thousands of young people (and others) protesting the police action in Vietnam (not a "Declared War" BTW) was that most young men at the time knew that they stood a fair chance of being sent over. 'Kinda riled up the parents of said young men too.

 

SSG Bales is a sad case. If he's guilty, it's a horrific crime, but I see him more as a tragic figure than a monster.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Philonius

[rob]

Having a draft, one that young Georgie W or Darth Cheny types couldn't so easily duck out of would probably make the old white guys in DC less likely to unleash the dogs of war.

 

I don't see what difference that will make, at the end of the day the guys in washington are never the guys being sent over to die -- draft or no draft. Wide-scale conscription of our entire youth seems a high price to pay for the hopes that some of the old white guys might happen to have draft-age male children. I guess you could call that the "take you down with me" approach. Interesting.

 

Personally, I can't think of anything less American than the draft. If "the people" truly support a war, they'll contribute. If not, well, then I guess they don't care enough anyway, so it's moot. That's how it's supposed to work.

 

Fucking A.

[rob]

A better way to limit unnecessary warfare would be to reduce military spending. I think that definitely would be better than a new draft. Don't you think?

 

You guys are crazy.

[E-rock]

Back to sucking.

 

TMI buddy.

 

I was wondering if you'd make red meat of that one.

[AlpineK]

We're loosing focus here. Don't forget the elephants in the room

 

[img:center]http://digitaljournal.com/img/8/4/6/3/9/7/i/9/4/6/o/Elephant_Herd.jpg[/img]

 

[img:center]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-gSYiDDZog/Tn-Kk9OssDI/AAAAAAAADVc/v6zKLYDHNiU/s1600/DS4_4862.JPG[/img]

 

[img:center]http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/08/article-1307537813822-0C777E1B00000578-363512_466x310.jpg[/img]

 

[img:center]http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00301/05sm_elephant3_jpg__301972f.jpg[/img]

 

[img:center]http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20110609/0023ae606e660f5a5c5403.jpg[/img]

[rob]

Elephants are violent.

[minx]

Elephants are violent.

 

yes, they need therapy to explore their issues and a big group hug. then everything would be all wonderful with them.

 

people are violent. war is violent.

 

the issue is incredibly complex. this thread started b/c of the actions of one individual and has drifted off towards large societal issues. i don't believe there is one neat and tidy answer. i don't believe that the world is ever going to solve its problems without some armed conflict. i sure do wish it would. trying to simplify this issue on cc.com to good/bad yes/no is a bit trite for a group of people who generally seem to be at least moderately intelligent.

[dougd]

Elephants are violent.

 

yes, they need therapy to explore their issues and a big group hug. then everything would be all wonderful with them.

 

people are violent. war is violent.

 

the issue is incredibly complex. this thread started b/c of the actions of one individual and has drifted off towards large societal issues. i don't believe there is one neat and tidy answer. i don't believe that the world is ever going to solve its problems without some armed conflict. i sure do wish it would. trying to simplify this issue on cc.com to good/bad yes/no is a bit trite for a group of people who generally seem to be at least moderately intelligent.

 

I have enjoyed the thoughtful parts of the discussion.

[Mtguide]

ALL adult age males need to register for mandatory military service. The draft needs to be reinstated. Period - end of story. The days of war being an abstraction because you KNOW you won't have to go, therefore you do not need to invest yourself need to come to an end.

 

When everyone has the potential to be slaughtered equally then perhaps wiser decisions regarding wars and lives will lead to rapid endings to Imperial Dreams.

 

That worked really well in the past, that's why we never had crazy stupid wars nobody wanted until 9/11 right? Fucking genius

 

Strong second that; ALL wars (yes,even WWII, and ESPECIALLY WWI) are crazy and stupid. The United States has started many crazy and stupid wars, such as the genocide of the Native Americans, the war for the "liberation"(read: outright theft) of Texas, the Spanish-American War(desired and encouraged by the vile United Fruit Co., which wanted control of the Cuban banana plantations--the war was fomented by the explosion of the battleship Maine, which the US claimed was a deliberate bomb or mine, and later turned out to be a boiler explosion(the Maine was a steamship)), and everyone's all-time favorite craziest and stupidest, the Vietnam War( which was also started, by the US, based on a complete and utter lie about an attack on the USS Tonkin, an incident which never happened, a total fabrication. The Second Iraq War was totally unnecessary, therefore also crazy and stupid. It has served little else but to destroy an entire society and country, kill over one million innocent Iraqis, the permanent maiming and disfigurement of at least 55,000 US troops, the waste of hundreds of billions that the US desperately needed to be spent at home for all kinds of infrastructure and social projects, and last but not least, has killed some 5000 of our best and brightest young men and women, and orphaned and widowed many thousands on both sides whose loved one is now gone forever, leaving in its wake the deepest kind of life-long, unending pain. All while smirky, spoiled rotten little GW sits on his hobby ranch in Crawford, Texas and thinks he did nothing wrong.

 

Even so-called "just" wars are crazy and stupid, WWII a prime example. Started by Hitler, a certified madman, the only reason it was not crazy and stupid on the part of the US to enter it was that it WAS necessary, doing nothing was not an option, unless you'd prefer to be speaking German or Japanese right now, be ruled by the Thousand-Year Third Reich, with ongoing genocide a daily fact of life.

 

Our own Revolutionary War was "necessary" due to the arrogance and intransigence of King George, but no less crazy and stupid. It could have been avoided, to the greater peace and prosperity of both sides. Likewise our own Civil War, which was so ferocious and bloody that even the most vicious and bloodthirsty nations of Europe and Asia were appalled by the savagery that threatened to completely tear apart the United States. It pretty much did succeed in utterly destroying the South for many generations, and Southerners are still filled with deepest hatred for the "Yankee" North.

 

Oh, and despite our "detente" with Russia, China and others, the various disarmament treaties and arrangements, we still have thousands of nuclear weapons pointed at each other, in a hilarious little situation called Mutual Assured Destruction, or MAD. Great, just great....

[rob]

I have enjoyed the thoughtful parts of the discussion.

 

And the elephants. Let's be fair, here