Killer Deltoids Workout

[jon]

Agreed that the formula is not accurate for everyone. Just a place to start. Did you find yours being hooked up to monitors on a treadmill or did you figure it out yourself on a track or something?

 

genetics plays more into MHR than training? (my new excuse)

 

what is OBLA?

 

I found my max HR by going down a deep dark hole. Max HR isn't a measure of fitness, just a measure of what your genetics gave you. Training can make it go higher. More importantly though is to be able to do an effort at that level and be able to recover from it repeatedly. Saying your 205 doesn't mean anything if you are curled up in a ball barfing on yourself.

 

OBLA = Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation. You measure it with a blood lactate meter and it is basically the balance point of when lactate is produced faster then it is removed. Unless you are training by power or distance/time it's not a terribly useful test because in a lot of individuals HR can be effected by how rested your are, time of day, caffeine intact, stress, etc.

 

A pretty good way to determine your aerobic threshold it to do a 20 minute time trial/workout on whatever it is your doing, whether it is the bike, running, stair climber, and take your average HR from that effort.

[DPS]

My dogs workout so hard sometimes when I walk them they throw up. But I think its really because they eat grass.

[genepires]

I'll have to write a note to myself reminding me to not eat grass while climbing.

[DPS]

A lot of my partners like to smoke grass while climbing.

[PrincessWookie]

This regime definitely allowed me to make progress, and as noted, unlike Burkett Boy, I cannot retain lean body mass as well as he does so I have to be more creative, but I'm glad the Gym Jones/ Mark Twight approach works for him. Hey, but I ain't first ascending shit...but that's not my goal.

 

OK, I do see now I need to kick my ass harder and become more of a machine! But the below system really has gotten me leaner and stronger yet I'm still feminine. And I work 12-14 hour shift days 2 weeks and STILL train--and my job is somewhat physical. I'm up at 1:30 am, meal prep, work, lift weights, bed, repeat.

 

We all have different body types. There is no exact formula on how to conquer the catch 22 of bodybuilding: how to gain muscle while getting lean at the same time.

To understand why you cannot do excess cardio unless your genetic makeup is very prone to build muscle no matter how much cardio you do, you need to understand WHY cardio is bad for maximum muscle gain.

 

Cardio is bad for muscle building because;

1. It increases training frequency which slows down recovery

2. It trains your muscles into becoming more endurant which don't grow as much

3. You are expending calories needed for building muscle on cardio training

4. You're increasing cortisol on more times per week than without cardio

5. If you do fasted you promote muscle loss, if you do it pre workout you fatigue yourself, if you do it post workout you postpone recovery and protein synthesis. As you can see the less cardio you do the better for muscle building.

 

As a trainer with not enough muscle mass but with tons of eagerness to stay or get ripped, I have news for you. You cannot have it all at once. We all spend years on building a frame enough dense to cope with strict dieting. If you have too little muscle you end up looking like a skinned skinny chicken!

 

If you feel this area is too complicated it's usually due to lack of knowledge about training, hormonal response and what the elements are for muscle building. You should pick up a book and read every time you feel you know nothing about why and how etc!

 

So, to have some kind of basic guidelines, here are mine for you:

 

For hardgainers who should only do cardio for the fitness effects;

2 x 15 minutes intervals (done 2 hours post meal and followed by post workout nutrition. Should NOT be done on the same day as weight training and NOT the day pre or post leg training.)

 

If you're fairly lean and really need muscle

3 x 20 min intervals per week

 

If you have high body fat and high lean mass too:

2 x 30 min intervals, 2 x 40 min % 70% (these two steady can be done fasted, These shall be 6-8 hours away from weights.

 

If you have high body fat and plenty of muscle you don't need to keep everything of:

6 x 20-60 min per day (separate from training, 6-8 hours between sessions)

 

In general you want to do the minimum amount of cardio you can get away with without packing on body fat!

 

Pauline "exposed" on T-Nation And as you can see, she is very much feminine and sexy.

[John Frieh]

We are daily bombarded by solutions to real and imagined problems. I saw something today claiming that the future of training is in the past, and that primal eating and activity is the way forward. Constantly analyzing and accepting or rejecting these solutions is a time-killer without equal. And quite often, an adopter, realizing how much time and energy he or she invested in finding a personally acceptable solution starts to proselytize and defend it, and eventually offend everyone in ear- or screenshot. The louder they shout - and I've been a shouter - the more I reject them. And the more I ask, "what is good?"

 

What gets people to pay better attention is good.

 

If group workouts do so, great.

 

If a new training fad makes you exercise in the first place, great.

 

If zone/ paleo/ eat for your blood type/ whatever-the-fuck makes you more aware of your eating behavior and take steps to correct it, great.

 

But that's all it is so why do we give product and promises and shortcuts - the so-called solutions - supernatural power? Why do we imagine an easy way out? Have we dug ourselves so miserably deep that only hope offers a lifeline?

 

Doing the hard work we know is needed to reverse course is the more difficult act to imagine. So we stake our future on failed shortcut after dead end miracle. How long will it take to learn? How much time will be wasted before we buckle down and get on with unfucking what we have done to ourselves?

 

First we have to quit believing the hype of our uniqueness. When we are told over and over we are elite and special we begin to believe it, and to search for particular, individual activities or supports to help improve us. But how special could one possibly be? How different? Is a bio-identical supplement needed? Or a signature diet and training and sleep plan?

 

If buying into it makes you pay better attention and causes consistent, heightened awareness then yes: useful but not necessary. Haile Gebrselassie grew up on a crap diet with no supplements and set 27 world records. There are others like him. And if this level of performance is not dependent on special diets or supplements or shoes or a magic jockstrap then how could all that be necessary at the very mediocre levels of performance we can achieve?

 

Pay attention. Understand your actual current condition. Define realistic objectives. Learn what it will take to achieve them. Execute and hold yourself to the standard you determined was required. Do not allow distraction. Pay attention.

 

And when the snake oil salesmen come around don't take the bait. Deep inside you know that what is needed cannot be bought or sold.

[eldiente]

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CLIMBING? Hormones, BPM,HR cardio what is this Runnerworld.com or Men's Fitness.com? Since we're talking climbing training, the only thing worth mentioning is the hangboard. Super easy to do, no running required and you won't bulk up. Plus you'll SEND which is the whole point of training right?

 

-Nate

 

[PrincessWookie]

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CLIMBING? Hormones, BPM,HR cardio what is this Runnerworld.com or Men's Fitness.com? Since we're talking climbing training, the only thing worth mentioning is the hangboard. Super easy to do, no running required and you won't bulk up. Plus you'll SEND which is the whole point of training right?

 

-Nate

Good point.

 

 

[PrincessWookie]

We are daily bombarded by solutions to real and imagined problems......

Thanks! That was an excellent post, from wherever it came...good points.

 

And didn't anyone else think, "Burkett Boy" was funny?! It made me chuckle....(but also a compliment).

 

[genepires]

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CLIMBING? Hormones, BPM,HR cardio what is this Runnerworld.com or Men's Fitness.com? Since we're talking climbing training, the only thing worth mentioning is the hangboard. Super easy to do, no running required and you won't bulk up. Plus you'll SEND which is the whole point of training right?

 

-Nate

 

by this logic, we should get rid of the ski forum then cause it ain't climbing. And spray, pirates and whatever else that is non climbing related.

 

hangboard isn't gonna help with alpine and ice climbing but that ain't climbing anyway right?

 

 

[eldiente]

Haha all in good fun. Although I get lured into Spray from time to time, this site would be better off without it. (Sorry thread drift, not the place)

 

I'm a rather poor alpine climber myself and would tip over and die if I had to keep up with anyone on this thread on the approach. However, I've never bailed off any route, ice, rock or otherwise because I was out of breath. Forearms/fingers are always the limiting factor. What's one to do when you encounter M9 moves on your big ice climb? Or a hard boulder move on day three of your big wall? You can't stair master your way out of that kind of terrain. Umh I wonder what mixed climbers like Dave Macleod do for training...

 

Anyway.. Being body FIT and having rad technical skills would be ideal. However it seems like people put too much emphasis on the fit part and not enough on the skills part. (Now I'm just justifying my fat self, I need to go for a run)

 

Soooo go hangobard and get wicked strong digits. Then come summer you'll solo right past your mates that are lugging around around a huge rack and rope up that alpine ridge. Although you'll out climb everyone, the dudes that were busy slamming weights all Winter are going to have better luck with the ladies, hangboarding does nothing for your physique.

 

-Nate

 

 

[genepires]

better luck with the ladies? I better get back to the gym.

 

You are right about the need for skills and specialization for expected demands. Now imagine a real gym with some hangboards, overhanging walls and you got yourself mountain athlete gym in jackson.

 

Now if I could convince the local crossfit or ymca to let me hang some goodies in there place.

[rob]

Now imagine a real gym with some hangboards, overhanging walls and you got yourself mountain athlete gym in jackson.

 

Just make sure you don't accidentally do any cardio on the stairs on the way to the hangboards, that would be counterproductive. Best take the elevator.

[John Frieh]

I've done three seminars with Rob Shaul/Mountain Athlete since 2008 and I dont know if I agree with him on mixing sport specific training (hangboards, campus boards, etc) into regular training sessions (weights, cardio, etc). I think Rob's program has some solid improvements over say good old fashion CrossFit but that said I disagree with some of his program design.

[genepires]

I've done three seminars with Rob Shaul/Mountain Athlete since 2008 and I dont know if I agree with him on mixing sport specific training (hangboards, campus boards, etc) into regular training sessions (weights, cardio, etc). I think Rob's program has some solid improvements over say good old fashion CrossFit but that said I disagree with some of his program design.

 

for the sake of intellectual curiosity, please educate us with why? Not arguing against.

 

Sounds like you suggest separating it by some time amount. How would you schedule a weight room and rock gym sessions?

[eldiente]

I agree with John on this one.

 

I used to play around with things like: Hangboard and then jump rope on the rest cycles. Or boulder traverse with pack and then go into a row. My thinking was that it was a way to simulate that "smashed" feeling you get on enduro days.

 

Since then I've gone back the other way, train one thing at a time and make it count. EX: morning cardio, night hang board session. The idea being that you want to give max effort to whatever you're doing and to do it properly. I found that when I mixed the two I was doing both half ass. A proper hangobard session should leave you so pumped that you can't hold your dick to piss. Conversely I found that when I came off the rowing machine or jump rope and launched into a boulder problem, I was so wasted that all I could do were easy jug hauls which isn't helpful for anything.

 

The idea of a hybrid workout is fun and I really enjoy mixing in cardio/weights in while I climb. (You get funny looks at the gym doing push-up after every boulder problem) However it didn't make my a better climber or runner or much of anything.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2012 by eldiente

[denalidave]

the classic formula is 220 - age = max HR. If she is 30, her max HR would be 190. Training could bump this up too.

 

even with that, 158/190 = 83% which is fairly high for 60 min.

Yes, but it is really an "average", I'm sure there are many top athletes with much higher max thresholds than the chart states. My max by the chart is 178, I often push it to over 190 when trail running. When I was younger, I could get up to & maintain 220 bpm. Trainers would be dubious it was possible but I guess I just have big lungs. Been doing a lot of cardio all my life.

 

You guys should check out the book - Mind, Body and Sport by Dr. John Doullard. It's a quick read and only about $10.

 

"Until recently, the effortless "Zone" of peak performance was only within the reach of serious athletes. Now, with Body, Mind, and Sport, anyone can reach the Zone, regardless of fitness level.

 

Designed to accommodate a variety of individual fitness needs, the Body, Mind, and Sport program is split into two levels. Level 1 is for non-athletes who want to improve overall fitness; Level 2 is for those who want to train for competitive or recreational purposes. Your own unique mind-body type is taken into account to guide you in achieving your personal best without stress or strain. In this revised and updated edition of Body, Mind, and Sport, fitness expert and trainer John Douillard outlines a program in which your individual seasonal constitution-Winter, Spring, or Summer-determines what exercises or sports are best suited to your mind-body type and what foods you should eat for optimum results."

 

His training methods are the antithesis of the usual "push till you break down" to achieve max fitness. Instead, you approach training much more casually and differently throughout the various seasons of the year. He also claims we all have a particular body type which is a combination of the three primary body types - winter, spring & summer. Admittedly, I have not been as dedicated toward consistant training as I should, especially where diet is concerned, yet I have noticed marked gains when following his ideas. I would be very interested to see some of you fitness hero's (John) try it out for a few months. There is still a place for pushing ones body to it's max, but that is a much smaller portion in the overall training regiment. Premise being, if you continual push your body to the max, it does more damage than good. However, if you apply proper diet (individually designed) and train at a "comfortable" level, you can and will exceed your best performance with much less effort.

 

The hardest part for me when embracing his methods is holding back and keeping my heart rate much lower. I tend to just go balls out and think I'm "training". I still do that once in a while, but try to maintain his principles most of the time.

 

If you look at some of the athletes that subscribe to his methods, the results are impressive. Same goes for my own, albeit less dedicated, practice of his techniques.

[denalidave]

That is the formula stamped on all exercise equipment. It's irrelevant. I'm in my 30s and have a max HR of 205. I've bike raced with guys the same age who's max HR is 178, which was my aerobic threshold. It has nothing to do with fitness, more genetics. You can have a high max HR and have a low OBLA value, or vice versa.

[denalidave]

A lot of my partners like to smoke grass while climbing.

That's DANGEROUS!

 

Remember, SAFETY First! Safety Starts here (point at head). Safety is NO accident!

[denalidave]

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CLIMBING? Hormones, BPM,HR cardio what is this Runnerworld.com or Men's Fitness.com? Since we're talking climbing training, the only thing worth mentioning is the hangboard. Super easy to do, no running required and you won't bulk up. Plus you'll SEND which is the whole point of training right?

 

-Nate

Good point.

 

But so BORING! For me anyway.

[rob]

That is the formula stamped on all exercise equipment. It's irrelevant. I'm in my 30s and have a max HR of 205. I've bike raced with guys the same age who's max HR is 178, which was my aerobic threshold. It has nothing to do with fitness, more genetics. You can have a high max HR and have a low OBLA value, or vice versa.

 

Actually, at least with bike racers, what happens is that your cardio gets so much work that eventually you just can't hit your calculated max HR anymore -- your leg muscles give out before your heart. Case in point, when I started racing, I would regularly hit my calculated max or slightly above -- like, over 200. But now that I'm more fit on a bike and my heart has gotten stronger, my resting HR has significantly lowered and I can't even get my HR over 180 -- now my legs are the limiter, not my heart.

 

I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it. I read an article about this, something about how the stroke volume of a trained athlete increases (apparently the heart actually enlarges), increasing the cardiac output and thus lowering both resting HR and HR at exertion. I heard that Miguel Indurain's "max" HR was like 155. Sure, his heart was certainly capable of going higher, and his calculated max was certainly higher, but in practice that's as high as it ever needed to go. Or something.

Edited March 7, 2012 by rob

[jon]

[video:youtube]

Edited March 7, 2012 by jon

[Off_White]

I found my max HR by going down

 

Whatever works for you, but that may be TMI for this forum...

 

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