Greg_W Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by danielpatricksmith: Greg W, What good is a strong economy if it destroys the water you drink and the air you breathe. Think that's hyperbole? Take a look at Mexico City or China or any other developing country that has put 'progress' ahead of environmental protection. Both of your examples are 3rd World Countries; not a valid comparison. Again, be responsible not fanatical. Quote
MtnGoat Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 "What happens when whatever company comes to build a subdivision or extract resources (trees, oil, etc.) in your fave recreation spot, and they're not too keen on spending the extra dough to go about it "responsibly," and your spot is threatened?" Then you use opposition and bargaining to try and work it out. No one is saying environmental concerns are not valid ones, but some seem to hold the position that all claims are valid everywhere and if you don't agree, you don't care about any of them. Greenies claims to have balanced views would carry more weight with me for example, if they could point to *anywhere* they feel mining or drilling for example *is* acceptable, instead of pulling the dodge "we have too much" and never answering the question. Quote
ryland_moore Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Now you've proved to me that your a moron in two threads. NEVER has MtnGoat (or I) said that we have a God-given right to screw others. That is YOUR twisted interpretation and selective reading of what we have to say. Did you not read my last post? You may exercise your personal freedom and liberty to the extent that it does not infringe the personal freedom and liberty of your neighbor. Very simple. How is that "screwing others"?Greg W you have proven yourself wrong. In your post you state that it is o.k. to do what you want as long as you don't infringe upon your neighbor, but you also state that you do as you please. So how do you know if you are infringing on your neighbor or not? Whn gas prices go up? When you can't see across Bostin Basin b/c of smog? This is simple economics you learn in high school with the example being two farmers. More can be produced, and more people succeed if their is cooperation and collaboration rather than I'll do what I want and you do what you want approach that you speak of. For the record I drive a Chevy extended cab PU and bought it for a firewood business I used to do in Jackson Hole. Now I am thinking of something smaller and ride my bike to work. I guess I am a liberal to my friends back East and a conservative to my firends out here. And as for the ANWR troll, an article I read on CNN.com said that over 80% of the oil would not remain within our domestic border. It would be exported for more money! Quote
iain Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by RobBob: Iain, I have just completed a rapid but thorough study of the effect of termite flatus on global temperature. The detail of the reading is dry and in many languages, over the heads of most of the environmentalists here. But suffice it to say we got a big problem, boys and girls! We're going to need worldwide cooperation and an assload of DDT to fix this one fast. just call the orkin man. dude's a regular al gore Quote
greenfork Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: is this like the selfish left wing view, I'll try and legislate whatever I can regardless of the effects it has on others, because I feel I'm helping? Seems worrying about effects on others is really really important...until leftists decide they want to impose all kinds of effects on others, because it makes them feel good. I think it's funny when "right wingers" talk about the left imposing restrictions on their freedoms, and then "the right" goes ahead and prevents legalization of marijuana, and continually tries to make abortion illegal. Who's imposing on who?? Quote
MtnGoat Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 "All commute 2-20 miles, alone, daily." If this is *their* view of need, that's ok by me. I realize we don't agree and appreciate your reasoned approach. Quote
j_b Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: j_b's debate moves into "moron" claims because someone doesn't agree with him. no, apparently you are the only one who could not see I was simply returning the favor. Quote
MtnGoat Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 j_b: What favor would that be? Are I now to assume that disagreement with you indicates the disagreer is calling you names? That's quite an assumption. Please provide evidence I for one have posted personal attacks on you using derogatives and namecalling. As pointed out before, there is a search utility for your use. Quote
MtnGoat Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 "I think it's funny when "right wingers" talk about the left imposing restrictions on their freedoms, and then "the right" goes ahead and prevents legalization of marijuana, and continually tries to make abortion illegal. Who's imposing on who??" an entirely valid point and one I share. Quote
iain Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 gotta be careful with this left and right stuff when it comes to herb, there's plenty of conservatives puffin' tough out there, this board being my primary evidence. Quote
Beaver_Joe Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 My first post and can you believe its on the spray board? Everybody's life is full of contradictions. And we can pick at each others' contradictions all day long without accomplishing anything. The only thing anyone can do about it is being informed and asking themselves if they feel warranted in making any given decision. Quote
RobBob Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 ...stumbling, coughing through the drug-testing minefield... Quote
allthumbs Posted October 23, 2002 Author Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Beaver Joe: My first post and can you believe its on the spray board? Everybody's life is full of contradictions. And we can pick at each others' contradictions all day long without accomplishing anything. The only thing anyone can do about it is being informed and asking themselves if they feel warranted in making any given decision. Quote
RobBob Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 Beaver Joe. Lessee, is that a vocation, or an avocation? Quote
j_b Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: What favor would that be? Are I now to assume that disagreement with you indicates the disagreer is calling you names? That's quite an assumption.sigh, let it go MtnGoat. I was replying to Greg's post and telling him that *I* did not need to call him a moron. quote: Now you've proved to me that your a moron in two threads. Quote
MtnGoat Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 "So how do you know if you are infringing on your neighbor or not?" IMO the problem here is the definition of infringement, which can be so broad as to be useless sometimes. Infringement to me means infringement upon their negative rights, which is not the same as having an effect on them because we unavoidably effect each other. They key here is, are their rights infringed by the effect? "This is simple economics you learn in high school with the example being two farmers. More can be produced, and more people succeed if their is cooperation and collaboration rather than I'll do what I want and you do what you want approach that you speak of." But cooperation does not imply forced cooperation, and neither does collaboration imply forced collaboration. If one person is making good choices and runs a productive farm, and another is not and runs a crappy farm, the do what I want approach is resulting in one party successfully producing. Cooperation is an obvious value when it is merited and as such people seek it without being forced to. Self organization results in lots of cooperation without the need for directed action imposed by external third parties. "And as for the ANWR troll, an article I read on CNN.com said that over 80% of the oil would not remain within our domestic border. It would be exported for more money!" It doesn't matter wether it remains in our borders or not, the existence of additional supply effects market prices regardless of who buys it as long as the purchase takes place on an open market. Markets do not need directed resources for price flexibility to occur. [ 10-23-2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ] Quote
offwidthclimber Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 i think we may have a contender here for that elusive 55 page topic! Quote
iain Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 As someone who grew up in Corvallis, I can hypothesize that his spicy nickname is referring to the Oregon State Beavers, who are getting trounced in the Pac-10 right now. Or he's a big fan of beavers, plain and simple. Quote
RobBob Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 I want to expand on my modest proposal for worldwide population control. Let's do something about it before famine and disease cause catastrophe around the globe! All of our best world organizations can get involved: The UN, IMF, UNICEF. Funds, trade status, and Playstations go to the third-world nations who successfully lower their birthrate to steady-state. Quote
Beaver_Joe Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 Don't care for football too much. Its amusing but does not govern my mood. The reference is to the mentally handicapped beaver fanatic who goes around campus with a wheelbarrow and has steadily put on weight since his emergence onto the beaver athletics scene. Quote
j_b Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: heck, he still hasn't found evidence that we support "screwing" other people by our admission, not his. I can claim all kinds of things about anyone, if I am willing to use my views of their activities as "proof" in absense of asking them what they really believe and support. interesting logic. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Both of your examples are 3rd World Countries; not a valid comparison. Again, be responsible not fanatical. nuhuh...china is not a third world country...2nd... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by RobBob: I want to expand on my modest proposal for worldwide population control. Let's do something about it before famine and disease cause catastrophe around the globe! All of our best world organizations can get involved: The UN, IMF, UNICEF. Funds, trade status, and Playstations go to the third-world nations who successfully lower their birthrate to steady-state. So, are you suggesting something along the lines of more condoms or more genocide? Will the population control measure be imposed on each country equally, from a random population sample? Who will be deciding all this? You? Quote
Off_White Posted October 23, 2002 Posted October 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: quote:Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Hey is it true greenpeace spikes trees and does other sorts of pranks similar to it If this is true then Greenpeace are a bunch of wankin pussies. Jeez Cpt, times are tough when you've got to answer yourself. I don't think Greenpeace are tree spikers, thats more of an Earth First or ELF action. Greenpeace is more Ghandi like, and tend to opt for obstruction rather than trying to inflict injury on those doing the work. They blockade, chain themselves to things, put up large public banners, and just generally try and get in the way in a manner that results in media coverage, which is their real tool. I think Greenpeace is also more active on an international scale than in the US, hence the French bombed their boat because they got in the way of French nuclear testing in the south seas, and the Indonesians hate them for exposing the level of waste spewed by those cheap overseas factories, etc etc. Despite GregW's lumping them in with other groups, they are not engaged in animal rights work in the PETA sense, and don't do much in the realm of regional planning. Personally, I think Greenpeace is a part of the myriad forces that help counterbalance Industry's monomaniacal self interest, and yield a more liveable world. Don't get me wrong, turning a profit is what industry is supposed to be all about, and profit is good, but unchecked corporate self interest does not work for the common good. Sure, common good is a (admittedly fuzzy) moral concept, and its where I differ from Mtn Goat's vision of five billion people looking out for number one and screw the rest of you. But the short answer is, No, Greenpeace doesn't spike trees. Quote
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