New Poor Judgement Bolt on City Park

[pope]

What causes more environmental impact: the strip mining for metal ore and factory production required to produce all that trad gear, or the comparatively minor amount of raw material and production needed to produce bolts? Note: I'm not bashing trad climbing in favor of sport climbing, I enjoy both, but an environmental argument is most definitely a non-starter when it comes to elevating trad above sport.

 

This is such solid logic (and probably the best you can come up with). Similarly, we shouldn't object when somebody takes a large, steaming dump on Library Ledge since somewhere in Wenatchee there must be a sewage treatment plant.

 

But seriously, I don't object to updating old bolts. Every effort should be made to use the old hole, or at least do a nice job of disguising where the old bolt was located. My issue with the bolt being discussed here is that the pitch is well protected without a bolt. Instead of replacing that bolt, it should have been removed. What we have is a bolt placed next to a reasonably protectable crack with a stampede of CC.commies rushing to defend it.

[Pete_H]

 

This is a one move pitch, it's the approach pitch to Sloe Children. If you look at S.C. it has a very hard unprotected start.

 

Reading this thread, I was thinking the same thing.

 

I don't think the start to the 2nd pitch of City Park was unacceptably dangerous before, just maybe a bit spicy. But there's a lot of spicy moves to great pitches at Index I can think of off the top of my head. Are we just going to dumb those down with convenience bolts too?

 

 

 

[boadman]

 

This is a one move pitch, it's the approach pitch to Sloe Children. If you look at S.C. it has a very hard unprotected start.

 

Reading this thread, I was thinking the same thing.

 

I don't think the start to the 2nd pitch of City Park was unacceptably dangerous before, just maybe a bit spicy. But there's a lot of spicy moves to great pitches at Index I can think of off the top of my head. Are we just going to dumb those down with convenience bolts too?

 

 

 

The convenience bolt already existed. There has actually been no change to the route in terms of bolt count.

[Alex]

It's a somewhat scary thought that I've been climbing at Index ~17 years now too! :0 Just means we're old.

 

The rusty 1/4 bolt that protected those moves was crap. The moves are also directly above the belay ledge, where if you skate and you're nutz don't hold you you're going to have a nice ankle injury or worse. Also, it seems from all parties that the person who did the work was thoughtful about it, and tried to gather enough support for it rather than just do it without consultation. This should be commended, not beaten down, we need more of this.

 

Thanks for the bolt replacement, and the method you used.

 

 

[Pete_H]

The moves are also directly above the belay ledge, where if you skate and you're nutz don't hold you you're going to have a nice ankle injury or worse.

 

True, but on most routes If you fall and your gear doesn't hold you may be hurt.

 

I'm no badass climber but I thought the nut placement there is decent and the move not too difficult. Once you get the good handhold there you can get in a TCU before the crux move too.

[Julian]

What causes more environmental impact: the strip mining for metal ore and factory production required to produce all that trad gear, or the comparatively minor amount of raw material and production needed to produce bolts? Note: I'm not bashing trad climbing in favor of sport climbing, I enjoy both, but an environmental argument is most definitely a non-starter when it comes to elevating trad above sport.

 

This is such solid logic (and probably the best you can come up with). Similarly, we shouldn't object when somebody takes a large, steaming dump on Library Ledge since somewhere in Wenatchee there must be a sewage treatment plant.

 

So basically, you are fine with the environmental degradation caused by trad climbing so long as it's not located at the crag where you happen to be. Out of sight, out of mind right? If some kid in a 3rd world country gets poisoned due to lead and arsenic ponds, that's an acceptable price to pay to not see some small pieces of metal drilled into a rock face.

[JosephH]

The "which is worse, a bolt or Chernobyl?" 'environmental' argument is a moronic and blunt instrument at best. And from my perspective, outside of the degradation of areas due to the traffic bolts drive, it's a non-issue. Bolting as a primary driver of the overall climbing demographic and the redefinition of climbing is far more of an issue.

 

This case sounds straightforward to me and not really one of either re- or retro-bolting, but rather a matter of whether an unnecessary bolt next to adequate pro needed to be replaced or removed. Pretty simple equation: is the pro adequate there for a competent trad leader of the grade or not?

 

No? Replace the bolt.

 

Yes? Remove the bolt.

 

It ain't rocket science...

[kevbone]

 

No? Replace the bolt.

 

Yes? Remove the bolt.

 

 

This coming from a guy who has "replaced" more bolts than anyone I know. "isn't it ironic....don't you think"?

[Good2Go]

The original bolt was likely in good shape when Doug T first lead the route 17 years ago, so it's hard to understand how the experience has been diminished for a first time leader by returning it to the same condition as when he took his first lap. What's more, the block that previously sat on the ledge below the bolt made it trivial to get to the "bomber" nut placements he referenced. That isn't the case anymore. I've lead the pitch several times since the block disappeared and I did not identify any good placements to protect the moves getting to those pin scars. I've got the moves pretty much dialed at this point, so the bolt doesn't seem necessary to me anymore, but that doesn't mean it's superfluous for a first time leader who is just competent at the grade. The FA made the decision to place the bolt on everybody's behalf. Any objections should have been raised with them.

[JosephH]

This coming from a guy who has "replaced" more bolts than anyone I know. "isn't it ironic....don't you think"?

With the exception of six rebolts on YW (and talk about unnecessary bolts!), they weren't protection bolts, but rebolting of existing anchor bolts. Or is it that can't you tell the difference between the two...?

 

P.S. And if it were up to me personally I'd have been chopping way more bolts than replacing...

Edited August 9, 2011 by JosephH

[Buckaroo]

I hope this is sarcasm.

 

Why? Because you wouldn't be able to deal with it if it wasn't?

 

 

 

Climbing is a bullshit fun activity people do because they enjoy it, not some vital cog in human evolution.

 

only as far as you assume. I'm going to argue that it is very vital. Of all my activities climbing is the greatest challenge and keeps me mentally and physically fit more than any other.

 

Here's an example. When Steve House and Marko Prezelj did the 3rd ascent (in 30 years) of North Twin, there was a climbing groupie that said she wanted to have Marko's baby. What do you think is going on there?

 

What do you propose? That we all lie on the couch with no challenges? Where do you think the species is headed in that case?

 

Or hey let's all become sport climbers, our bodies will be fit but we will have fat ass pasty white McDonalds minds, because we have had no mental threat, no mental challenge.

 

Everything should be absolutely safe. We should never have to observe and evaluate a situation for danger. Dumb everything down, there will be no need for intelligent decision making.

 

Also the comparison of sport to trad from a resources standpoint is not all that different. Sport climbers use draws with aluminum beaners and Gri-Gri's which are heavy aluminum devices. I was talking more the impact on the rock faces. I will grant you trad is probably no better from an overall viewpoint.

[Buckaroo]

The original bolt was likely in good shape when Doug T first lead the route 17 years ago, so it's hard to understand how the experience has been diminished for a first time leader by returning it to the same condition as when he took his first lap. What's more, the block that previously sat on the ledge below the bolt made it trivial to get to the "bomber" nut placements he referenced. That isn't the case anymore.

 

The experience is diminished in that overall standards have raised as has the capabilities of gear. In addition the pin at the start of Sloe Children has been removed. So now the challenge has been lowered back down in spite of the higher standards of climbing and protection.

 

It's still easy to get to the first placement. The large block was intentionally pried off so that the fall would now be clean, it was not a clean fall before. I can't think of any other reason someone would do something that stupid.

[kevbone]

With the exception of six rebolts on YW (and talk about unnecessary bolts!),

 

Should we add you did this against the wishes of the FA?

[boadman]

You're implying that chubby, pasty people don't breed. I think that's a fallacy.

[num1mc]

Pretty doubtful that the bolt in question is a FA bolt. Did City Park even have a second pitch, or is that really Godzilla, FA Harder and Heller.

 

Hopefully Still Crankin' reads this, and lets us know

 

 

[Good2Go]

Getting to the first placement may be easy for you, but not necessarily for a leader who is just able to handle the grade and is making an onsight attempt. I know of two people who have fallen onto the bolt in question. Are you saying it should be removed to make the route more difficult for leaders of your calibre (i.e., how the the FA "should have" rigged it in the first place)? And, what does Sloe Children have to do with this discussion? The 2nd pitch of CP is a great climb in and of itself. Hardly just a stepping stone along the path to SC.

[RuMR]

I hope this is sarcasm.

 

Why? Because you wouldn't be able to deal with it if it wasn't?

 

 

 

Climbing is a bullshit fun activity people do because they enjoy it, not some vital cog in human evolution.

 

only as far as you assume. I'm going to argue that it is very vital. Of all my activities climbing is the greatest challenge and keeps me mentally and physically fit more than any other.

 

Here's an example. When Steve House and Marko Prezelj did the 3rd ascent (in 30 years) of North Twin, there was a climbing groupie that said she wanted to have Marko's baby. What do you think is going on there?

 

What do you propose? That we all lie on the couch with no challenges? Where do you think the species is headed in that case?

 

Or hey let's all become sport climbers, our bodies will be fit but we will have fat ass pasty white McDonalds minds, because we have had no mental threat, no mental challenge.

 

Everything should be absolutely safe. We should never have to observe and evaluate a situation for danger. Dumb everything down, there will be no need for intelligent decision making.

 

Also the comparison of sport to trad from a resources standpoint is not all that different. Sport climbers use draws with aluminum beaners and Gri-Gri's which are heavy aluminum devices. I was talking more the impact on the rock faces. I will grant you trad is probably no better from an overall viewpoint.

 

I can't believe this!! ! Holy crap you are on another planet...

[Raindawg]

Also the comparison of sport to trad from a resources standpoint is not all that different. Sport climbers use draws with aluminum beaners and Gri-Gri's which are heavy aluminum devices. I was talking more the impact on the rock faces. I will grant you trad is probably no better from an overall viewpoint.

 

Hey. Buckaroo! You've made many interesting points but I have to disagree with your latter statement. One of the key environmental points of trad climbing is to place your own gear and remove it, thus leaving the rock in a decent state for the next climber, for generations to come. Sport-climbing is the antithesis of this and leaves a permanent deteriorating metallic trail for all to follow wherever one pleases.

 

You want to dumb down the second pitch of City Park even more?....add a few more bolts and make it a sport-like climb...check out "Numbah Ten" just a few dozen yards away.

 

And "RuMR: Nice to see that you continue to honor me with one of my favorite quotes."

[Buckaroo]

 

I can't believe this!! ! Holy crap you are on another planet...

 

No I'm not. I just have stronger vision to see this one for what it really is.

[Buckaroo]

Getting to the first placement may be easy for you, but not necessarily for a leader who is just able to handle the grade and is making an onsight attempt. I know of two people who have fallen onto the bolt in question. Are you saying it should be removed to make the route more difficult for leaders of your calibre (i.e., how the the FA "should have" rigged it in the first place)? And, what does Sloe Children have to do with this discussion? The 2nd pitch of CP is a great climb in and of itself. Hardly just a stepping stone along the path to SC.

 

Why should it be easy for everyone?

 

You are not getting my argument. When it was climbed originally it was hard even with the bolt due to the average standard of climber's capabilities and the capacity of gear, ie shoes, protection. With the advances of standards of both gear and climber's average capability, the climb has become, on average, easier. Thus the bolt is no longer necessary to make the climb safe.

 

I will grant you it's a good climb in and of itself although not comparable to the ones above and below it.

 

[Buckaroo]

I believe it's the 2nd pitch of CP. Godzilla keeps going up the dihedral on the right.

[el jefe]

I'm going to argue that it is very vital. Of all my activities climbing is the greatest challenge and keeps me mentally and physically fit more than any other.

 

Here's an example. When Steve House and Marko Prezelj did the 3rd ascent (in 30 years) of North Twin, there was a climbing groupie that said she wanted to have Marko's baby. What do you think is going on there?

 

What do you propose? That we all lie on the couch with no challenges? Where do you think the species is headed in that case?

 

so chicks are more attracted to tradsters than bolt clippers? interesting argument from the planet known as Buckaroo. some people climb because it is fun, others because they think it makes the opposite sex perceive them as superior breeding stock (i.e., "a stud").

 

if i've understood you, your argument is that the bolt on city park pitch 2 needs to be removed in order to ensure that human evolution doesn't stagnate -- is that about right?

[Julian]

I hope this is sarcasm.

 

Why? Because you wouldn't be able to deal with it if it wasn't?

 

No (I'm not even sure what "wouldn't be able to deal with it" even means in this context...), because it's borderline insane. And I see you've decided to expand on it:

 

Climbing is a bullshit fun activity people do because they enjoy it, not some vital cog in human evolution.

 

only as far as you assume. I'm going to argue that it is very vital. Of all my activities climbing is the greatest challenge and keeps me mentally and physically fit more than any other.

 

Then it's vital to your personal health and fitness, no problems with that. But if climbing (as a sport, not just as a motor skill humans use to get over things) didn't exist, I don't think the human race as a whole would be any worse (or better) off.

 

Here's an example. When Steve House and Marko Prezelj did the 3rd ascent (in 30 years) of North Twin, there was a climbing groupie that said she wanted to have Marko's baby. What do you think is going on there?

 

What's going on there? A climbing groupie wants to score with a famous media climber, for whatever that's worth. It's not because climbing North Twin suddenly made Marko a more attractive breeding mate.

 

Let me put this another way: I'd be willing to bet that Chris Sharma could get more girls than just about any trad or alpinist type, if he wanted to. Does that make sport climbing and bouldering inherently superior forms of climbing? Of course not.

 

What do you propose? That we all lie on the couch with no challenges? Where do you think the species is headed in that case?

 

Absolutely not, although somehow I think there are challenges more pertinent to the evolution of the human race than whether a piece of rock is climbed using a bolt or a nut.

 

Or hey let's all become sport climbers, our bodies will be fit but we will have fat ass pasty white McDonalds minds, because we have had no mental threat, no mental challenge.

 

Everything should be absolutely safe. We should never have to observe and evaluate a situation for danger. Dumb everything down, there will be no need for intelligent decision making.

 

Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning? I already said I enjoy both sport and trad, and in fact, I like trad more than sport because I find it fun to fiddle with gear. And my preferred type of climbing, ice, is even more mental/dangerous. But that doesn't mean I'm going to flip out over some bolts.

 

Also the comparison of sport to trad from a resources standpoint is not all that different. Sport climbers use draws with aluminum beaners and Gri-Gri's which are heavy aluminum devices. I was talking more the impact on the rock faces. I will grant you trad is probably no better from an overall viewpoint.

 

Considering trad climbers use quickdraws, carabiners, belay devices, etc. as well, that doesn't seem to balance things out. A set of bolts can serve how many climbers? Now, how much more metal would be needed for every one of those climbers to have an adequate rack of trad gear? Note: I do not mean this as an argument that everything should be bolted. Only that the supposition that trad is a more "environmentally friendly" form of climbing to be an extremely weak one. There are plenty of good reasons to trad climb, and to not bolt naturally protectable lines, without getting into dubious environmental arguments.

[Drederek]

This is insane, all ya gotta do is put bolt in the title of a thread and this happens every time.

[denalidevo]

Climbed G-M/HOTC at Index this evening after work. There was a shiny new Petzl hanger on the first pitch near where I used to clip a rusty old pin (now gone). Who's gonna' complain 'bout that one?