Greeks Bearing Gifts....

[j_b]

I think the hardcore invisible handjobbers would recommend the let it burn and build the new utopia from our ashes approach. Jay?

 

Right, but the hardcore invisible handjobbers are only the rhetorical fig leaf for business as usual (privatize profits, socialize losses)

Edited November 17, 2011 by j_b

[JayB]

Not sure how it'll all end, but Greece is looking like a Lorenzian strange attractor for the modern welfare state.

 

The eastern block countries were fortunate in that there were people around with both the wealth and the shared values necessary to subsidize their transition away from a system where consumption perpetually exceeded production. Rome had the Ostrogoths. Seems like the latter of the two scenarios is the more likely in this instance. Or something like the status quo that existed between the Morlocks and the Eloi.

 

Having said that, looting the future to bribe the present makes for a fun generation or two of first-world hedonism, sans the dreary responsibilities of working, saving for your own old age or reproducing. Gave a lovely light, no?

[ivan]

do greece and italy at least print their bonds on nice, soft, absorbent, charmin-worthy paper?

[j_b]

Public debt as a % of GDP as of 2010. Everyone will notice that "welfare states" with a functioning social safety net are no more in debt than more neoliberal states despite JayB's claim to the opposite:

 

Japan 220

Greece 142.76

Italy 119

Belgium 96.67

Singapore 96.29

Ireland 94.92

United States 94.36

Portugal 92.92

Iceland 92.37

Germany 83.96

Canada 83.95

France 82.33

United Kingdom 75.5

Austria 72.15

Brazil 66.84

India 64.12

Netherlands 63.68

Spain 60.12

Norway 55.42

Poland 54.98

Switzerland 54.52

Malaysia 54.2

Argentina 49.1

Finland 48.39

Denmark 43.65

Mexico 42.92

Turkey 42.15

Slovakia 41.78

Sweden 39.7

Taiwan 38.62

Czech Republic 38.54

Australia 20.52

 

[ivan]

Australia 20.52

who needs a safety net when ya gotta whole wild continent of crocs, bunnies n' kangroos to consume?

[sobo]

Not to mention platypusses! Or would that be platypi...??

[rob]

platypussies.

[ivan]

platypussies.

fuckers have poison heel-spurs, i wouldn't go calling'em pussies since even smart cats leave'em alone

[sobo]

platypussies.

fuckers have poison heel-spurs, i wouldn't go calling'em pussies since even smart cats leave'em alone

Especially this one...

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Australia 20.52

who needs a safety net when ya gotta whole wild continent of crocs, bunnies n' kangroos to consume?

 

And chicken-sized lizards that conveniently stand up to bumper height.

 

And a quarter million feral camels that are actually quite delicious.

[ivan]

And a quarter million feral camels that are actually quite delicious.

and, according to a wikipedia, about 11 million camel-toed hotties w/ fuck-all for fucking hangups hanging out on la playa?

 

from an austrailian fashion-week shoot:

Edited November 17, 2011 by ivan

[tvashtarkatena]

Those labia do not look height/weight proportional. Implants?

[sobo]

Those labia do not look height/weight proportional. Implants?

I guess after 30 pages, we coulda expected to arrive here...

 

OK, time for a sammich...

[tvashtarkatena]

Might I suggest crustless cucumber and tuna?

[sobo]

Does the cucumber go into the tuna? Or is the fish wrapped around the gourd?

[JayB]

Public debt as a % of GDP as of 2010. Everyone will notice that "welfare states" with a functioning social safety net are no more in debt than more neoliberal states despite JayB's claim to the opposite:

 

It's not only the size of the debt that folks with money to invest in bonds worry about, it's the ability to repay it.

 

If it was all about the numbers, the yield on Spain and Italy's debt wouldn't be heading north rapidly despite the ECB's best efforts to keep a lid on them.

 

We could find ourselves in the same boat, and rather quickly.

[prole]

Not sure how it'll all end, but Greece is looking like a Lorenzian strange attractor for the modern welfare state.

 

Until capitalism comes up with a way of dealing with its "surplus population" and the means for its working classes to meaningfully participate in social life other than the consumerist spectacle OR does away with its pretensions to democracy entirely, the welfare state will do quite nicely. Keep us posted!

 

The eastern block countries were fortunate in that there were people around with both the wealth and the shared values necessary to subsidize their transition away from a system where consumption perpetually exceeded production. Rome had the Ostrogoths. Seems like the latter of the two scenarios is the more likely in this instance. Or something like the status quo that existed between the Morlocks and the Eloi.

 

I can only take "shared values" to mean the socialist ideals embedded there over generations.(good not to mention Russia here, where most extreme application of your values took place). You're right, without those kinds of shared values our own transition is likely to fare much worse.

 

Having said that, looting the future to bribe the present makes for a fun generation or two of first-world hedonism, sans the dreary responsibilities of working, saving for your own old age or reproducing. Gave a lovely light, no?

 

Hedonism? Is that what you're calling your golden age now? That's the fantasy that bosses and marketing departments and their politicians have been using to keep citizens filling their dreary responsibilities since the nineteen-twenties. It's what you've had us to understand was the highest measure of human freedom! What's to provide the new ideological cornerstone of civilization, Jay? I think you're holding back on us a little bit, teasing with those allusions to some "duty to reproduce". More Remorseless Math, no doubt.

 

[JayB]

-AFAIKT your definition of surplus population is more or less the same thing as the zero-marginal-product worker, e.g. someone who can't generate output that makes his employer more money than it costs to employ him. That's clearly a function of fixing the price of labor so high that you price out the least skilled and educated, and prevent them from ever entering the work force. If it weren't, you'd see almost universal unemployment in less developed countries where folks are vastly less productive since their efforts aren't amplified by capital investment, and are thwarted by poor infrastructure, corruption, etc.

 

-Bonus points for the source of the quote below:

 

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

 

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

 

[olyclimber]

surplus population is more or less the same thing as the zero-marginal-product worker, e.g. someone who can't generate output that makes his employer more money than it costs to employ him

 

this is what humans were born for. to generate output.

 

i hate it when the cogs on the gears of a machine get sticky. they need to design a better machine so that doesn't happen.

[prole]

-Bonus points for the source of the quote below:

 

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

 

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

 

Ebenezer Scrooge?

[prole]

this is what humans were born for. to generate output.

 

i hate it when the cogs on the gears of a machine get sticky. they need to design a better machine so that doesn't happen.

 

And it's the left that's always charged with "social engineering". Priceless.

[JayB]

-Bonus points for the source of the quote below:

 

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hardworking. The incentive system, is totally out of whack.

 

"Why should, for instance, within [the] eurozone some member's people have to work to 65, even longer, whereas in some other countries they are happily retiring at 55, languishing on the beach? This is unfair. The welfare system is good for any society to reduce the gap, to help those who happen to have disadvantages, to enjoy a good life, but a welfare society should not induce people not to work hard."

 

Ebenezer Scrooge?

 

Good guess.

 

He's had several European dignitaries visiting him pleading to buy their bonds lately.

 

 

[JayB]

this is what humans were born for. to generate output.

 

i hate it when the cogs on the gears of a machine get sticky. they need to design a better machine so that doesn't happen.

 

And it's the left that's always charged with "social engineering". Priceless.

 

 

Adopting the values of the bohemian counterculture never works out very well without a big fluffy cushion of money to insulate you from the consequences of doing so.

 

People who decide they want to work are much better off under a policy regime that doesn't prevent them from doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Ever work with any Europeans (in Europe), Jay?

[tvashtarkatena]

Didn't think so. I have. Extensively...in Europe. France, England, Germany, Netherlands mostly. Newsflash: They work just as hard as we do...but in general they tend to have more egalitarian values than higher ethical thresholds than the shitheels that constitute your darling political party.

 

That may be why they're pretty far ahead of us in internet connectivity and speeds, cell phone technology, coverage, and quality of service, large project engineering, health care....