Greeks Bearing Gifts....

[prole]

...the real questions and problems.

 

Homeopathics!

[Jim]

I have two basic points. The first is that borrowing more than you can repay is always a bad idea. This is true whether it's to finance a McMansion or a college education. If you've got to borrow to finance your education, it's probably worth trying to figure out whether the career that your education will prepare you for will allow you to repay the loan.

 

The second is that a college education doesn't guarantee a high income. If your primary objective for going to college is to increase your earnings, there are lots of skilled trades that you can get into where you'll earn as much or more than a big chunk of college graduates do without spending as much time or money as going to college requires.

 

While I think that there should be more done to provide access to kids going the college I would argue just as much for impoved access to technical schools and apprenticeship programs.

 

Shoot - my car mechanic has got to be the most well-read, well-educated person I know. AND he knows how to fix things, which most college grads seem to be afraid of. Plus, he works 4 days a week and likely matches or beats my salary. College is definately not the only alternative and certainly not the only way to develop critical thinking.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

.....all stats show that most people with college degrees earn higher income.

 

Where is the head slamming into desk emoticon?

 

Precisely.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

...the real questions and problems.

 

Homeopathics!

 

a very lucrative area of private education, as i understand it.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I have two basic points. The first is that borrowing more than you can repay is always a bad idea. This is true whether it's to finance a McMansion or a college education. If you've got to borrow to finance your education, it's probably worth trying to figure out whether the career that your education will prepare you for will allow you to repay the loan.

 

The second is that a college education doesn't guarantee a high income. If your primary objective for going to college is to increase your earnings, there are lots of skilled trades that you can get into where you'll earn as much or more than a big chunk of college graduates do without spending as much time or money as going to college requires.

 

While I think that there should be more done to provide access to kids going the college I would argue just as much for impoved access to technical schools and apprenticeship programs.

 

Shoot - my car mechanic has got to be the most well-read, well-educated person I know. AND he knows how to fix things, which most college grads seem to be afraid of. Plus, he works 4 days a week and likely matches or beats my salary. College is definately not the only alternative and certainly not the only way to develop critical thinking.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

.....all stats show that most people with college degrees earn higher income.

 

Where is the head slamming into desk emoticon?

 

Precisely.

 

[Jim]

...the real questions and problems.

 

Homeopathics!

 

a very lucrative area of private education, as i understand it.

 

Most likely reaping a good living off the liberal arts, English, and art history graduates.

[JayB]

Here's some help for the enlightened members of the cognitive elite the next time someone cites a statistical association between two variables:

 

1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

 

2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding

[rob]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

[rob]

Or, would you only tell him that if he was poor? If he's rich, then he gets to be a doctor.

[JayB]

...the real questions and problems.

 

Homeopathics!

 

a very lucrative area of private education, as i understand it.

 

Most likely reaping a good living off the liberal arts, English, and art history graduates.

 

Who are, at this very moment, busy saving you from your own ignorance and myopia, Mr. narrow horizons Guy.

 

 

 

 

[Jim]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

 

I would say it all depends on the young man or woman. If they had a particular inclination and skill set, were interested in some trade but thinking that for some reason the had to go to college to "succeed" - well then a bit of an analysis is in order. I know folks, including family, that in retrospect would have done a hell of a lot better getting trained in, say PT assistant or dental assistant; plumbing or engine repair - rather than the English and Labor Studies degrees they came out with - both from a financial and overall life benefit standpoint.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

 

I would say it all depends on the young man or woman. If they had a particular inclination and skill set, were interested in some trade but thinking that for some reason the had to go to college to "succeed" - well then a bit of an analysis is in order. I know folks, including family, that in retrospect would have done a hell of a lot better getting trained in, say PT assistant or dental assistant; plumbing or engine repair - rather than the English and Labor Studies degrees they came out with - both from a financial and overall life benefit standpoint.

 

Exactly. It depends. And maximizing salary is not everything in life.

[JayB]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

 

I'd ask him: What do you like to do, what are you good at, and how important is earning a decent salary to you?

 

If he said I love poetry and have a knack for languages and love to study, I am independently wealthy, and I don't care about making money than I'd recommend he go to the school with the best poetry program out there - irrespective of the cost, and continue with graduate study if possible. Again - irrespective of the cost.

 

If he said I like to work with my hands, I've got a knack for fixing things, I find most of school boring and pointless and my family can't pay a dime for more education I'd recommend that he look into skilled trades where he can learn on the job and get paid while doing his training - and that college is something that he can always pursue later if his ideas about what he wants to do with his life change.

 

Etc - basically what any non-retarded high-school guidance counselor would tell kids based on their interests, aptitudes, and level of motivation.

[j_b]

This is an amusing conversation to have with self-annointed members of the enlightened cognitive elite.

 

says JayB who regularly appears to think he is writing a memento for the Pompadour's salon conversations.

 

My point was that if you want to determine a particular benefit of going to college, you have to compare the people who went to college with the people who are just like them in every other respect - but didn't go to college.

 

How to do that? Find the people who got good grades in high school and then pursued some other kind of career training. Look at how they're doing compared to people who got equally high grades and went to college?

 

sounds good. How do you think you'll get the statistically significant samples of equivalent students with the same teachers, same mode of learning, in schools of equivalent means, etc.. to do what you suggest? why do you think it isn't done? Much of science, especially social sciences, isn't done on the basis of fully controlled experiments. Nonetheless, the income factor as a barrier to education has been well established.

 

 

Much better way to determine the effect of going to college on health, wealth, etc. Want to get more granular? Compare the jet-engine mechanics to the sociology majors, etc. The differences you find are much more likely to be attributable to having attended college.

 

How is it that I am having to hammer remedial shit like correlation vs causation, confounding variables, etc to highly educated members of the enlightened cognitive elite? I knew this shit in junior high. My high-school graduate grandma could make these distinctions while cooking up an apple-pie and listening to a baseball game on the radio.....

 

knowing that correlation isn't causation doesn't mean there isn't sufficient evidence to show that income is a major factor in access to higher education as has been shown in this thread. Regressives have specialized in trying to muddy the waters by claiming that correlation isn't causation over many issues despite overwhelming evidence than in such cases causation is well established.

 

[j_b]

While I think that there should be more done to provide access to kids going the college I would argue just as much for impoved access to technical schools and apprenticeship programs.

 

Shoot - my car mechanic has got to be the most well-read, well-educated person I know. AND he knows how to fix things, which most college grads seem to be afraid of. Plus, he works 4 days a week and likely matches or beats my salary. College is definately not the only alternative and certainly not the only way to develop critical thinking.

 

Yes.

 

Where is the head slamming into desk emoticon?

 

head slamming for turning the trivial into the general case? sheesh!

[j_b]

My point was that ...

 

The examples you picked of the reasons why people don't make it to college were more revealing of your intent than the point you actually stated. You attempted to push the blame on destructive behaviors and poor parenting rather than on the socio-economic conditions that prevent students from being prepared for and access a college education.

Edited June 24, 2011 by j_b

[tvashtarkatena]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

 

I'd ask him: What do you like to do, what are you good at, and how important is earning a decent salary to you?

 

If he said I love poetry and have a knack for languages and love to study, I am independently wealthy, and I don't care about making money than I'd recommend he go to the school with the best poetry program out there - irrespective of the cost, and continue with graduate study if possible. Again - irrespective of the cost.

 

If he said I like to work with my hands, I've got a knack for fixing things, I find most of school boring and pointless and my family can't pay a dime for more education I'd recommend that he look into skilled trades where he can learn on the job and get paid while doing his training - and that college is something that he can always pursue later if his ideas about what he wants to do with his life change.

 

Etc - basically what any non-retarded high-school guidance counselor would tell kids based on their interests, aptitudes, and level of motivation.

 

You'd make a really inspiring counselor. "Shoot low, kid." I prefer my world just little less formulaic and deterministic, thanks. Most people going to college are 18 - they have not fucking clue what they want to do. Their 'levels of motivation' are far from set. College is a great way to mix it up and explore that.

 

You act is if the system is forcing poor feckless kids who would really be happier in a MinuteLube bay go to Harvard instead ("how did I get under all this debt!!!???" Its yet another strawman to justify your fundamental douchery - you'd prefer to save a few bucks rather than give a fuck and help those who want to go to college get there. "But what if education ISN'T all its cracked up to be?" Typical Rfuck suck.

 

You should sign on to an Rfuck campaign this time around - they need all the pineapple upside down messaging they can get.

 

 

[JosephH]

One would think that people who are intelligent, educated, or both would realize that at this point anyone standing in the way of the transparent regulation of derivatives markets should be staked out on fire ant mounds located near africanized bee hives as traitors to their nation.

 

Unregulated derivative trading is the mechanical heart beating out the rhythm and meter of our current economic crisis.

[tvashtarkatena]

Why regulate at all? Greenspan never even wanted to regulate FRAUD. Buyer beware and all that.

 

Jesus. I fucking hate Rfucks. All the integrity of a drunken frat boy with none of the charm.

 

Fortunately, they're all really shitty in bed, so we get the choice babes.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Could you be any more repugnant, or throw an even noisier temper-tantrum?

[j_b]

awwwww, Attila couldn't locate his sense of humor. Poor thing.

[JayB]

So, if a young man asked for your advise, you'd tell him that attending a trade school was "just as good" as attending university, and that he can make just as much money without a diploma in either case, if he "just tries hard enough?"

 

Is that about right?

 

I'd ask him: What do you like to do, what are you good at, and how important is earning a decent salary to you?

 

If he said I love poetry and have a knack for languages and love to study, I am independently wealthy, and I don't care about making money than I'd recommend he go to the school with the best poetry program out there - irrespective of the cost, and continue with graduate study if possible. Again - irrespective of the cost.

 

If he said I like to work with my hands, I've got a knack for fixing things, I find most of school boring and pointless and my family can't pay a dime for more education I'd recommend that he look into skilled trades where he can learn on the job and get paid while doing his training - and that college is something that he can always pursue later if his ideas about what he wants to do with his life change.

 

Etc - basically what any non-retarded high-school guidance counselor would tell kids based on their interests, aptitudes, and level of motivation.

 

You'd make a really inspiring counselor. "Shoot low, kid." I prefer my world just little less formulaic and deterministic, thanks. Most people going to college are 18 - they have not fucking clue what they want to do. Their 'levels of motivation' are far from set. College is a great way to mix it up and explore that.

 

You act is if the system is forcing poor feckless kids who would really be happier in a MinuteLube bay go to Harvard instead ("how did I get under all this debt!!!???" Its yet another strawman to justify your fundamental douchery - you'd prefer to save a few bucks rather than give a fuck and help those who want to go to college get there. "But what if education ISN'T all its cracked up to be?" Typical Rfuck suck.

 

You should sign on to an Rfuck campaign this time around - they need all the pineapple upside down messaging they can get.

 

 

- "Formulaic and Deterministic" is equating going to college with "aiming high," and any other career path with "aiming low."

 

-Ditto for assuming that you can't go from one path to another. I know plenty of people that figured out that they wanted to go to college after working in a trade for a while, and plenty of people who decided they'd rather work in a trade after going to college and finding the line of work they originally trained for unsatisfying. This is hardly news.

 

Love the Dada-style ad hominems, BTW.

 

"You'd rather cut through sheet of cornbread with a coping saw than play hacky sack with a mariachi band...."

 

 

 

 

 

[prole]

Regressives have specialized in trying to muddy the waters by claiming that correlation isn't causation over many issues despite overwhelming evidence than in such cases causation is well established.

 

Ideology posing as science is awesome. "We're all good then? The chicken and the egg thang? Check. Can't know anything, y'all got that, right? So the status quo is good to go? Cool, I'm out!"

 

Is it bizarre how Jay's "findings" never result in anything other than re-validation of the status quo? Amazing stuff!

 

[rob]

Is it bizarre how Jay's "findings" never result in anything other than the status quo? Amazing stuff!

 

+1. Everything is just fine the way it is! Conservatism at its finest.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Is it bizarre how Jay's "findings" never result in anything other than the status quo? Amazing stuff!

 

+1. Everything is just fine the way it is! Conservatism at its finest.

 

Yeah, that's what everyone is saying. Great "analytical skills".

 

Here's a clue - when people (or internet bots) are constantly harping on how their hair is on fire and the crisis is at hand signifies imminent disaster, the response will typically be to debunk that bullshit.

 

 

[JosephH]

That would mean you'll be debunking the republican's manufactured debt crisis and forecasts of disaster?