Youthful Hubris sucks monkey balls.

[chirp]

I respect Dawgs views and thank him for being committed to core values. He's a good chap.

 

I'm not trying to be some crotchety old timer, but it seems that shitting on Raindawg is more important you you all than the actual issue and it really ruins the flow of the site and posts.

 

just sayin'

Edited March 26, 2011 by chirp

[genepires]

whatever....

 

 

you are lumping all "dissidents" of dawg's beliefs into a category of youthful, gym climbers, and little regard for nature. While I don't know everyone personally, the people who have issues with dawg's presentation that i know personally are all fine individuals who care about the environment and do not fit your description above. (even choada boy!) This is the problem with internet. Behind every avatar is a person and maybe a internet persona. Easy to let that persona get out of hand when all you see is a digitized enemy.

Things were much more civil when all interactions took place around a campfire, pub or crag.

 

 

oh great. I write a thoughtful post and you go ahead and edited it while I wasn't looking

Edited March 26, 2011 by genepires

[genepires]

I am sure we would all get along just fine if meeting face to face.

 

I get the feeling that people don't crap on dawg because it is fun. It is the presentation of dawg's ideas. No one likes being preached to endlessly. No one likes being told that they are lacking true morals endlessly either. And maybe the problem is that dawg has not offered anything to this site other than his feelings towards bolting and being critical of nearly everyone. A one track horse that becomes just plain boring once the novelty wears off.

 

maybe I am wrong but that is my take on it.

[chirp]

LOL sorry to edit it Gene but I felt I was too verbose.

Ya some aspects get old but so does the "bouldering/gym hive mind as well.

I guess its just a balance that seems hard to make in this day and age.

My feelings would be less me and more environment/access/respect. A lot of newer folks do have this but lack the depth of experience to make a really true assessment.

I just think "extreme" views like Dawgs are really normal, but in our skewed world, seem not.

I still favor the experience over pure numbers.

/shrugs but thats me eh

 

 

[denalidave]

I am sure we would all get along just fine if meeting face to face.

 

I get the feeling that people don't crap on dawg because it is fun. It is the presentation of dawg's ideas. No one likes being preached to endlessly. No one likes being told that they are lacking true morals endlessly either. And maybe the problem is that dawg has not offered anything to this site other than his feelings towards bolting and being critical of nearly everyone. A one track horse that becomes just plain boring once the novelty wears off.

 

maybe I am wrong but that is my take on it.

[genepires]

Ya some aspects get old but so does the "bouldering/gym hive mind as well.

My feelings would be less me and more environment/access/respect. A lot of newer folks do have this but lack the depth of experience to make a really true assessment.

I just think "extreme" views like Dawgs are really normal, but in our skewed world, seem not.

Once again, I don't know everyone here. BUt the ones I know and what I get from reading what people say, I don't think a sizable part of cc.com has a "bouldering/gym hive mindset". I believe that the majority favor the experience over the numbers as well.

 

It is ironic that you mention "I guess its just a balance that seems hard to make in this day and age." when that is the exact problem (I suspect) that people have with the extremist views like raindawg's. There is no balance with people like him. No give and take. No compromise or accepting that others have valid points. Not really the member of a "community". (damn I am getting old using the community word)

 

Say you are a smoker who likes to eat a burger once in a while. You got a brother who quit smoking and is a vegan who hounds you every day about your vices. Is the brother right? Probably, but who gives a rats ass because that brother is a dick after a short time and the good message is lost. But if the vegan brother makes a ranting comment say once a month and is a good helpful guy the rest, then maybe the message will have an impact.

 

You see this kind of thing with most conservation organizations. Warn and inform us but don't badger us. Save the dire message for the end of the ocean documentary.

 

""extreme" views like Dawgs are really normal." No there are not. Reasonability and rationality are normal. Normal takes in consideration the overall picture. Normal understands that many people are involved with this activity and that many differing opinions are held. Normal member of society would try to accommodate the majority while still make progress to personal beliefs. Compromise. give and take.

 

Dictators say what the beliefs and rules are. Dictators don't care about society but impose their beliefs on the masses. (not claiming anyone is a dictator as you have to be in charge to be a dictator but you get my drift)

 

Can't end on such a harsh note. I didn't want to turn into a "bashing session". Just trying some civility. Once again, the internet allows these interactions to occur without appreciating that there is a person on the other end of the screen. It is just little 1's and 0's floating through copper and fiber. Society could use some more face to face time.

[billcoe]

I've been hiking longer than I've been climbing and I've been climbing longer than Don has. It's not about age. It's that Don talks out his ass. Same reason I get my hackles up over the Westboro Baptist Church's approach. Don's the same way. He's not about a dialog, he's about spewing his belief's. "Blah blah blah he's the righteous one blah blah pontificate pontificate...blah blah...."

 

He want's everyone to believe that if he is out hiking, and there is a large downfall/branch across the trail blocking it, he would turn around and not touch it, otherwise it's an environmental disaster and he's leaving a trace. Bullshit. Most of us would do the right thing, make the world better, and move it so that others may benefit. On this issue, like the church, he's full of beans, wrong, and the rest of us are right. It's really the way he presents the message that is so painful. He will continue to bray like an intolerant holier than thou asshole, you can rest assure of that, however, no matter how long or loud he brays and pontificates, it changes nothing except to make a lot of noises in public much like a jackass.

 

...jus sayin' too...

 

Regards to all

 

[chirp]

Well put points, I can count on at least Gene and Bill for sensible, respectful comments.

I concur on all of your points, however I typically see both sides and that is probably my weakness.

Keeping verbosity to the minimum.

Cheers!

 

[prole]

STFU. All of you.

[Off_White]

No Bill, you don't understand, there's a rising tide of the silent majority who appreciates his posts and tells him so.

 

Chirp, you're buying into Raindawg's myth by thinking its youthful hubris that is shouting him down. There is no gym/sport hive mind element here, and many of the Dawg's opponents are his peers who decry his one note intolerance, his insistence that climbing is only one thing, and the one thing that he defines to boot. Do you honestly believe, that Gene, Rad, Bill, RumR, or even Choada are uncaring despoilers of wilderness utterly devoid of ethics? You can't define any of those guys as "just" sport climbers.

 

Take a look at the youth here. Marc is all over the map, a strong climber who's come a long ways from the blue jeans clad Cheam range snow slogger he once was, Keenwash may boulder along Hwy 2, but he's saving up for Patagonia, Rockparrotlet has a great tick list in that Climbers Board thread and he's gleaning anything he can from his elders, Josh Lewis has moved from a hiker with aspirations to a young man with developing alpinist skills. These aren't the droids you're talking about, you're just talking about the strawman Raindawg stood up to justify his belief that kids today just don't measure up to the high standards of his youth. Its an old song sung by generation after generation, a lament you can find in ancient Greek literature, and it's just not true.

 

If you ask me, the kids are alright.

[chirp]

Chirp, you're buying into Raindawg's myth by thinking its youthful hubris that is shouting him down. There is no gym/sport hive mind element here, and many of the Dawg's opponents are his peers who decry his one note intolerance, his insistence that climbing is only one thing, and the one thing that he defines to boot. Do you honestly believe, that Gene, Rad, Bill, RumR, or even Choada are uncaring despoilers of wilderness utterly devoid of ethics? You can't define any of those guys as "just" sport climbers.

 

Absolutely not OW , like Gene said about internet anonymity, its all different in person.

I am sure few here are anti environment, it's our sports livelyhood.

Clowns and Dwarves do get a bit old, but the spirit of the idea is key and at least he keeps the awareness alive.

The ignore function is a handy tool if that kind of stuff annoys.

 

It's a gut level thing in some ways and I see more and more people littering and despoiling my area so I get defensive on the topic.

 

Thanks for letting me voice and be part of the community, its a delicate resource and with all the folks getting into it, more awareness is key.

 

 

 

"The most common form of terrorism in the USA is that carried on by bulldozers and chainsaws.

It is not enought to understand the natural world; the point is to defend and preserve it.

Sentiment without action is the ruin of the soul." - Edward Abbey

 

[genepires]

edward abbey also wrote about how great it was to have a campfire burning the juniper trees that are not so abundant in that desert. Like most people, his real actions fall a little short than his ideals. But that is ok. We are all human and to err is human.

[mattp]

Chirp,

 

Keeping an idea alive is a good thing and I don't blame you for getting defensive if you see a problem. I also agree that the Dawg has a point. Given ten years' history, however, the current status of these topics in the cc.com ethernet, and his status on this site, I think that Dwayner is beating a dead horse more than spreading any important idea.

 

I'd like to see maybe you take up the reins, or I'd hope the Dawg could figure out a way to make his real point without his personality becoming the focal point of "the discussion" every time he posts.

 

Dawg is showing more restraint now than he did in the past, and I appreciate that. But the basic posturing remains. (I include myself in this last statement, by the way. My basic posture has not changed much in ten years.)

[Choada_Boy]

I respect Raindawg's right to have his wrong opinion: "Your rights start where my feelings end."

 

You know that crazy guy who begs for free coffee at McDonald's every morning? Remember the one time where he took a 2x4 and banged on the outside of the building with it until they gave him free coffee and he went away? You know how he spend the whole rest of each day standing on the same corner yelling the same crazy shit about Agent Orange and Battlestar Galactica at passing cars and unsuspecting pedestrians? That's Raindawg.

[kevbone]

Chirp, you're buying into Raindawg's myth by thinking its youthful hubris that is shouting him down. There is no gym/sport hive mind element here, and many of the Dawg's opponents are his peers who decry his one note intolerance, his insistence that climbing is only one thing, and the one thing that he defines to boot. Do you honestly believe, that Gene, Rad, Bill, RumR, or even Choada are uncaring despoilers of wilderness utterly devoid of ethics? You can't define any of those guys as "just" sport climbers.

 

Take a look at the youth here. Marc is all over the map, a strong climber who's come a long ways from the blue jeans clad Cheam range snow slogger he once was, Keenwash may boulder along Hwy 2, but he's saving up for Patagonia, Rockparrotlet has a great tick list in that Climbers Board thread and he's gleaning anything he can from his elders, Josh Lewis has moved from a hiker with aspirations to a young man with developing alpinist skills. These aren't the droids you're talking about, you're just talking about the strawman Raindawg stood up to justify his belief that kids today just don't measure up to the high standards of his youth. Its an old song sung by generation after generation, a lament you can find in ancient Greek literature, and it's just not true.

 

Damn....I wasnt named.

[Off_White]

Sorry pookie, no slight intended.

[billcoe]

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2011/03/updated-big-bend-national-park-proposing-cut-mountain-bike-trail-peer-nps-retirees-raise-objections7827

 

Here's one I could understand argueing over, building a new single track trail...one that exudes horses. This will be a substantial and somewhat costly project. I think bikes are much better than the roads and massive projects they are still building in Yosemite valley, but I've never been to the Big Bend area, and if Don wanted to argue AGAINST a new mountain bike trail at that location, I could see, understand and even empathize that.

 

But he wasn't, he was saying don't cut a few inches off of a dead stump......

[kevbone]

Bill. You have over 10,000 post. Holy shit!

[billcoe]

Bill. You have over 10,000 post. Holy shit!

 

@ 3,300 less than you and I've been here 2 years longer...I must be slackin in comparison:-)

[Josh Lewis]

Damn....I wasnt named.

 

:laf:Maybe next time?