Where Are the Wingnuts

[rob]

Can private citizens declare a financial emergency and cancel all of their contracts (without declaring bankruptcy)? Sounds great, sign me up!

[Jim]

In the example I quoted I don't beleive that is what has been proposed.

[Jim]

There is no solution beside raising revenue from those who don't pay their fair share in taxes.

 

That ain't going to solve San Jose's - and other municipalities woes.

[j_b]

We get what we collectively pay for. If you don't want the wealthy to pay taxes, public services will reflect that fact. Pretending that paying skilled professionals minimum wage or whatever is possible in the public sector is sheer lunacy.

[Jim]

-----Since 2000, revenues grew 22 percent while employee costs rose 77 percent and staffing fell 17 percent.------------

 

 

A bit unsustainable I'd say and due mostly to pensions. Can only raise property taxes so much on deflated real estate, which is their primary tax revenue.

[j_b]

Just show me anyone who doesn't expect their compensation to at least keep pace with cost of living increases.

[Hugh Conway]

Ok, I'll ask the obvious question. What is a municipality to do, seriously?

 

They could sell off the airport they funnelled a couple billion into to an organisation that will run it properly.

[Jim]

Not the issue here:

 

-----Since 2000, revenues grew 22 percent while employee costs rose 77 percent and staffing fell 17 percent.------------

 

 

So let's see, staffing down by almost 20% revenue grows, but costs go up by over triple? Inflation ain't the issue.

[j_b]

You don't know what's the specific issue(s), so take you own advice about arm waving.

[Jim]

-----Since 2000, revenues grew 22 percent while employee costs rose 77 percent and staffing fell 17 percent.------------

 

Well, looking at this in a logical manner and assuming a 3% inflation rate a year over 11 years - it's hard to imagine that using the above statistics you could blame inflation as the culprit. A nuanced view would be that costs are outpacing revenues, by a long shot.

[j_b]

Official inflation accounts for grossly half of the increase in employee cost. We can speculate about the rest but it might also be very misleading. Healthcare benefits should have gone through the roof over that period. There may also be some aping of the private sector regarding outlandish wages for upper management.

[rob]

Financial Emergency Declared! Move straight to "Go" and collect $200!!!

[Hugh Conway]

So let's see, staffing down by almost 20% revenue grows, but costs go up by over triple? Inflation ain't the issue.

 

That sounds about right for doing business in the Bay Area over the past decade. Unlike Cisco local government can't outsource firefighting duties to China, but I'm sure Jay_B will chime in with some incredible insight on that issue

[rob]

well, firefighting should be pay-per-use, anyway. God damn this socialized police and fire infrastructure we have. SO EXPENSIVE!

[Hugh Conway]

hey, I've got some great reform schemes that I know will never be implemented, so I can cling to my quaint ideology

[rob]

let's privatize government.

[Jim]

Hyperbole aside - I don't think anyone (at least not me) is in favor of privatizing police, fire, etc. but with the serious increasing debt of retiree benefit programs the choices are to keep cutting services - in the case of San Jose - to a point where alternatives need to be considered.

 

Sure - increase revenue - tax the rich! But on a local scale revenue is largely comprised of real estate tax revenue, fees and taxes on municipal services (water, sewer) and in some cases sales tax (limited revenue). So pension programs, which were relying on the magic of underfunded payments from said government, lack of sufficient capital to generate the needed revenues, years of pension funds performing under wildly over optimistic interest forecasts, and now, a drop in the market. So it's not that the market has suddenly, in a couple years, infested the pension plans with holes, but rather it has provided a harsh light on what was always going on.

 

So the solution? I guess you can try and propose some extra high tax rate on local real estate of high end properties - but that is not going to close the gap - no way, no how. Next option - institute a new income tax? Newsflash - ain't going to happen even in the cases it was legal. Hmmmm - what does that leave us? - oh yea, the elephant in the room.

 

But I'm sure the struggling municipalities are open to suggestions - ones that apply to them.

[prole]

Man, giving out tax cuts when times were "good" instead of funding pension obligations and shoring up services was a really bad idea. Great example for the children and all that...

 

As has been said before, the only way to really close the gap is by stimulating economic growth, increasing demand for the goods and services that drive local economies. Cutting middle class workers' pay and benefits to the bare minimum of what will keep them alive and showing up to work isn't going to do that. It will simply depress wages across the board for public and private sector workers. It's why capitalists like the Kochs (and utopian ideologues like Jay) are really into this shit even if you're just "doing the math".

[j_b]

Jim keeps wanting to look at this issue as it were controlled on the local level but local governments have essentially no control over exploding health care costs, imploding real estate markets, outsourcing, tax avoidance, etc ..

[JayB]

Man, giving out tax cuts when times were "good" instead of funding pension obligations and shoring up services was a really bad idea. Great example for the children and all that...

 

As has been said before, the only way to really close the gap is by stimulating economic growth, increasing demand for the goods and services that drive local economies. Cutting middle class workers' pay and benefits to the bare minimum of what will keep them alive and showing up to work isn't going to do that. It will simply depress wages across the board for public and private sector workers. It's why capitalists like the Kochs (and utopian ideologues like Jay) are really into this shit even if you're just "doing the math".

 

Math

 

[JayB]

I have no objection to letting them go bankrupt and having the courts make the cuts via the bankruptcy process. Bills that can't be paid, won't be paid.

 

Courts or autocrats, Jay never met a dictatorial power in the service of capital he didn't like.

 

So...the Democratic mayor of Sacramento is a dictator, and the pool of revenues generated by local taxes, for the express purpose of providing public services, is "capital?"

 

Yes. Every public adminstrator trying to maintain the minimal level of public services with the actual stream of income at his disposal is a cigar chomping plutocrat hellbent on leveraging his power to enrich himself at the expense of the poor wretches under his charge. :lmao:

 

"Critical Social science degrees and and the damage done, a Marxist cartoon for everything under the sun, ohhhh, the damage done..."

[JayB]

Hyperbole aside - I don't think anyone (at least not me) is in favor of privatizing police, fire, etc. but with the serious increasing debt of retiree benefit programs the choices are to keep cutting services - in the case of San Jose - to a point where alternatives need to be considered.

 

Sure - increase revenue - tax the rich! But on a local scale revenue is largely comprised of real estate tax revenue, fees and taxes on municipal services (water, sewer) and in some cases sales tax (limited revenue). So pension programs, which were relying on the magic of underfunded payments from said government, lack of sufficient capital to generate the needed revenues, years of pension funds performing under wildly over optimistic interest forecasts, and now, a drop in the market. So it's not that the market has suddenly, in a couple years, infested the pension plans with holes, but rather it has provided a harsh light on what was always going on.

 

So the solution? I guess you can try and propose some extra high tax rate on local real estate of high end properties - but that is not going to close the gap - no way, no how. Next option - institute a new income tax? Newsflash - ain't going to happen even in the cases it was legal. Hmmmm - what does that leave us? - oh yea, the elephant in the room.

 

But I'm sure the struggling municipalities are open to suggestions - ones that apply to them.

 

 

"One of these days, thought Winston with sudden deep conviction, Syme will be vaporized. He is too intelligent. He sees too clearly and speaks too plainly. The Party does not like such people. One day he will disappear. It is written in his face."

 

 

[ivan]

Hyperbole aside - I don't think anyone (at least not me) is in favor of privatizing police, fire, etc. but with the serious increasing debt of retiree benefit programs the choices are to keep cutting services - in the case of San Jose - to a point where alternatives need to be considered.

 

Sure - increase revenue - tax the rich! But on a local scale revenue is largely comprised of real estate tax revenue, fees and taxes on municipal services (water, sewer) and in some cases sales tax (limited revenue). So pension programs, which were relying on the magic of underfunded payments from said government, lack of sufficient capital to generate the needed revenues, years of pension funds performing under wildly over optimistic interest forecasts, and now, a drop in the market. So it's not that the market has suddenly, in a couple years, infested the pension plans with holes, but rather it has provided a harsh light on what was always going on.

 

So the solution? I guess you can try and propose some extra high tax rate on local real estate of high end properties - but that is not going to close the gap - no way, no how. Next option - institute a new income tax? Newsflash - ain't going to happen even in the cases it was legal. Hmmmm - what does that leave us? - oh yea, the elephant in the room.

 

But I'm sure the struggling municipalities are open to suggestions - ones that apply to them.

 

 

"One of these days, thought Winston with sudden deep conviction, Syme will be vaporized. He is too intelligent. He sees too clearly and speaks too plainly. The Party does not like such people. One day he will disappear. It is written in his face."

 

but didn't winston love big brother in the end?

[tvashtarkatena]

Big Brother seems like such a good idea when He's torturing the Other Guy, eh?

 

Love the new Small Gubmint mentality the Right 'adopted' in, oh...inauguration day, 2008.

 

But, given widespread calls from The Reevers to continue prosecuting DOMA cases, repeal medical marijuana laws, monitor certain churches, and start up yet another war, I'd say the Right's long time love of Big Brother hasn't faded one bit.

 

Now, thair hatred of librul teachers...that's another matter.

Edited March 17, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

socialized education. We should privatize it.