eldiente Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I don't do a lot of aiding, I know some of you on here do the Dark Art. Perhaps you could help me out? Any ideas for the follower to aid around a crux section of a free climb while following? Assume no cracks so no French Free, follower gets to a hard section and can't make the moves, what's the best way to get them to up to the belay? I was thinking the follower could put Jugs on finish the pitch that way. My concern with this method is that the the follower is then jugging on the auto-lock belay, is this going to be a problem? I'd be a bit worried that jugging on the belay device might kink the hell out of the rope. Anyone got any good ideas how to switch over from following free to jugging? -Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 jugging on the auto lock belay should not be a problem. How about just slapping on a 3 to 1 and haul the person up enough to get back into climbable terrain? Use the auto lock at the first "pulley" and holding prussik. Would require a prussik and a biner and not too much rope rubbing on rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Cool thanks. Yeah I'm looking at a route with unknown grades, it is possible that the follower might end up making a few free moves on the pitch and have to jug a long way to climbable terrain. Assuming jugging on the auto block, what's the process for switching back to free? I was thinking having the follower clip some pro to take the weight off the jugs while the leader takes in the slack. Workable? Edited March 15, 2011 by eldiente Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvshaker Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Good to have a jumar/prusik and a sling or two ready, but many times you can get a second up something beyond their difficulty just by taking up slack and sitting back in to the belay for a little "extra" (possible with an autoblock if the belayer uses tiblock or ropeman). There is also the follower pulling on draws- commonly found at cruxs-and stepping on bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 If you are belaying the second from above while they are free climbing, and they are unable to make the moves,just counter weight the rope you are belaying by sucking it up thru the grigri, and then weighting it. Repeat, until they are past the crux. This works best if you are well below the belay anchor and the rope runs up and then back down to you obviously. Basically just a couter haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 if you get solid gear above then hang down a batman cord or some slings long enough for them to reach. Keep them on a tight belay on your primary climbing rope. If you climb on doubles then they can batman one while you take in slack on the other - this would be potentially sucky though because of the stretch and skinny-hard-to-gripness of most doubles. Also the 2nd doesn't necessarily have to hang out while you pull the slack out. Maybe they can tie a new loop and clip in and carry the slack themselves. This would be faster. If you want to avoid them jugging on the autoblock then throw on a backup prussic and get the followers load on that (release a tiny bit of slack through the autoblock, but leave it set up.) Lots of "it depends" options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Up to 10 - 15 feet I've just made ladders out of slings for the wife. If you're talking 50 feet or more you oughta just fix a second line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallstein Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 This technique definitely isn't for everyone, but I often just "batman" the rope, if the next piece is less than 15ft away or there is a good stance I go for it. Once you get to the piece or stance the belayer takes the rope tight and then batman again. I just recently did a large climb where the second had to climb in boots and gloves instead of climbing shoes and we didn't have jumars. I probably batmanned over 10 times on the climb. This isn't really a technique for the novice. I also always cary two short prusiks that I know how to use and use often but I save this for overhanging sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Just fix the rope and have them jumar the whole pitch? Why waste time switching from free to aid on a pitch they obviously cant do to begin with. Jumaring is always faster. Then you will get a chance to rest instead of hauling them up the pitch (sounds like you might be rope gunning). When ever I do big free routes with people and I know I won't be able to cleanly follow the pitch with out too much ease I always have my belayer fixe the rope the spare them the misery. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm with Wallstein here. If you are talking about a situation where a follower cannot or does not want to climb the crux, and by this I think we are talking about a short crux as opposed to a lengthy stretch of hard climbing, just have them batman up the rope. The belayer is going to have to be ready to hold their weight for this brief period of time, but the belay was already supposed to be able to do that, right? No equipment and no communication is needed. The follower simply pulls on the rope, moves past the crux, and the belayer then takes up slack. There is no need to fix the rope, break out jumars, or do anything else. Assuming there is a relatively short crux instead of a lengthy section of batman involved, this is the easiest solution for everybody. And it is almost certainly both less strenuous and less time-consuming that having the leader fix the rope so that the follower can jumar. I have typically used this technique where the crux was not longer than what I thought would expose me (when I was following) or the other party (who was the follower) to a large fall. If there is an extensive bit of hard climbing involved, or if the hard part is significantly overhanging, maybe it would be safer or more efficient for the leader to set a fixed rope (assuming they can communicate with the follower). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think it depends on hard the second has been trying to free the section, I can imagine being too pumped to safely batman, especially if it's steep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robpatterson5 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Not quite as fast as slapping a pair of jugs on the rope but you can always use two bieners to set up an alpine-clutch on the rope, with a 120cm sling as a foot loop. Attach your short rappel prussic/Reverso/ect to your belay loop - and jugg away. Works really well. As fast if not faster to set up as any of the other methods and all you need is one double length draw, 1 locker and a prussic. Remember to tie back up knots as needed. If you plan on simalcliming two Tiblocs or Ropemen and slings work too, and Batmaning works for a bit. Lots of variation there Edited March 16, 2011 by robpatterson5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvshaker Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Climber is 30' away from anchor and begins to batman up the rope to get through the crux. He batmans 15' and tries to clip into a draw so the belayer can take up slack. He blows it because he's pumped and lets go-fall factor .5 (a true .5 because it's on an auto block with no extra friction or belayer to absorb energy) Ouch I like the idea of the double ropes and taking up the non-batmaned rope. I will use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 All good ideas. Yeah it will be a rope gun situation, my partner would like to be free as much as possible but it is likely that there will be sections that are too hard for my partner. I've batmaned the rope many a time while working routes, but it wears me out to the point where I'd have hard time doing that for very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 what if your partner left a auto locking belay device attached to the rope near their tie in knot. Then if the need to ascend the rope,, they would only need to slap on a tibloc with a sling for the feet and the belay device would work as their waist prussik. Climb up rope on tibloc and pull the rope through the belay device (in auto mode) much like a caver ascends ropes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 just hang a long draw or two from the nearest piece of pro to french on - if the second has a fifi hook on their belay loop it's easy for them to rest too after getting pumped stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbaker Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I think having the 2nd mini-trax is a good option to consider. They can free climb to their heart's content and it's extremely easy to pull themselves up a hard section with a jumar or something similar. The transitions are seamless. But I already suggested this to Nate, I want to see what the collective genius of cascadeclimbers.com thinks. Thanks guys, Alex Edited March 16, 2011 by alexbaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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