Sam Harris vs Tvash/Prole

[JayB]

With moderation provided by j_b

 

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

[billcoe]

44+ min? Dear Lord. I caught the first 8 seconds, is there anything interesting later on?

[JayB]

Depends on the observer, but worth cracking a couple of brews and watching if you've got an hour or two to kill.

 

 

[Kimmo]

seems harris's arguments rest entirely too much on a pew poll: if i did find the right poll, i would hardly excoriate an entire people via their religion because of it (which harris seems to do).

 

further, harris tries his damnest to decontextualize "muslim violence", arguing that it's really the religion, not the socio-politico-economic conditions (which is silly at best).

 

let's also note that harris is an ardent out-spoken zionist, entirely supportive of israel's approach to palestine. have you ever heard him condemn a single act of israel's, from refugee camp slaughters, to continued settlement building etc etc?

 

regardless, an interesting vid.

[JayB]

How do you explain the statistical composition of suicide bombers?

 

If it's all about the conditions that they live in, rather than the framework of beliefs that they interpret their experiences through, one would naturally expect Arab secularists, Christians, Jews, etc to be detonating themselves in cafe's in numbers that are precisely equal to their representation in the Arab population, no?

 

To borrow from Harris again - why haven't we seen Tibetan buddists detonating themselves in Shanghai shopping malls?

[Kimmo]

ok, so you are reducing the "barabrism" angle to suicide bombers? nothing else?

 

also, can you please direct me to the pew polls.

[Kimmo]

and what percentage of the muslim world lives under autocratic control, propped by western interests, either now or very recent history?

[tvashtarkatena]

Seems like the bobsy twins have got this coverage. For the record , theist religions have been and continue to be strident promoters of ignorance, repression, and misery. The minute amount of charity they,ve performed has been vastly outweighed by their historical persecution of minorities, women, gays, the poor, the secular, public education, the scientific community, and people of other faiths and nationalities. The damage Christianity, our dominant cult, has done to the well being of this country and , given our power, the rest of the world is incalculable. Humanity would be far better off if monotheistic bigotry and superstition were replaced by secular humanist principles from the age of enlightenment.

[tvashtarkatena]

From a historical perspective, jays Jesus v mojo comparison is childish. Mojo was a reformer, particularly re womens rights. He was married exclusively to a Powerful merchant until her death. His reforms most certainly had a more rapid, wide reaching effect than Christ could have dreamed of.

[tvashtarkatena]

They kill one way, we kill another. Lots of innocents dead on both sides but inthe end the USA started both these wars in response to nothing more than a criminal act. Jays is an tired, transparent jingoists trick: omit one sides body count...and falsely blame the victim of our invasion. A real favorite of sociopaths thrOughout history when attempting to delegitimize more objective voicEs of reason. Appeasement! Isn't that the usual line jay?

[Jim]

I'm no fan of religion in general but one striking issue with Islam is that it has not gone through a reformation process and seems to be stuck in a particular brand of fundamentalism - at least how it is practiced in much of the mid-east. I'd encourage you to read this:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-God-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0345391691

 

Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is rooted in the profound fear of annihilation - a conviction that the militant Christian groups in the US as it is of Muslim extremists in Egypt and Iran.

 

Fundamentalists believe they ar fighting for survival, and when people feel that their backs are to the wall, they lash out violently like a wounded animal.

 

The next question then of course - is why are the fundamental Christians in the US not blowing things up? It's a complex issue that Dr. Armstrong wrestles with.

[tvashtarkatena]

A third or more of the military is evangelical - a group that strongly pushed for these wars and continues to push hard for an ever larger, ever more offensive military. I'd say they'vE ben blowing a few things uP. Your cultural blinders hide this broader, morE objective view however.

[Kimmo]

there's a long tradition of the valiant martyr in almost every culture, from the civil war hero riding to his sure death, to japanese pilots offing themselves, to christian martyrs to native americans "it's a good day to die", to the countless senselessly rushing forth in the trenches of WWI (well, maybe not valiant).

 

i don't really see "suicide bombings" as the axis of this whole "muslim vs. reformed west" argument, and to attempt to reduce it to such overlooks that thorny context issue (not to mention how the "civilized" west has killed magnitudes more innocent civilians with its "civilized" smart bombs etc etc).

[tvashtarkatena]

Your lumping all of Islam into one sect and implication that calvanist fundies HAVE reformed belies your cultural bias and ignorance of both religions.

[Jim]

Your lumping all of Islam into one sect and implication that calvanist fundies HAVE reformed belies your cultural bias and ignorance of both religions.

 

If that's what you got out of my brief post and refernce to the book - that's not what I was trying convey. You'll have to pick up the book and read it - I'm not going to try and summarize such a complex analysis here. But Armstrong does a a very detail analysis that is worth the trouble to wade through the issues.

 

That you, somehow, have gained enlighment, and the rest of us have cultural blinders on, is going down a familar path I'd rather not purse.

[tvashtarkatena]

Such xenophobic comparisons have an agenda: our cult is better (more reformed, is it?). In reality, theism promotes repression by squelching individual self determination. Only liberal secular humanist beliefs and institutions, such as our wholly secular constitution, protect us from the tyranny of god-based absolute authority.

[tvashtarkatena]

In short, hope lies in secular humanist democracy. Egypt, and here. The place doesn't matter.

[ivan]

seems to me people are assholes w/ or w/o religion - religion just appears to be one of a number of handy excuses for acting that way.

[JayB]

Such xenophobic comparisons have an agenda: our cult is better (more reformed, is it?). In reality, theism promotes repression by squelching individual self determination. Only liberal secular humanist beliefs and institutions, such as our wholly secular constitution, protect us from the tyranny of god-based absolute authority.

 

The claim that all moral systems that ground some of their precepts in supernatural claims are equally likely to promote violence and repression is every bit as ridiculous as the claim that all political ideologies are equally likely to do so.

 

No one in their right mind would blather on about the fundamental equivalence between fascism and pacifism, but there seems to be a surfeit of erstwhile progressives that are willing to indulge this kind of patent nonsense when it comes to religions.

 

Their fundamental doctrines are not all the same, they promote vastly different ethical norms and behaviors, and these have an enormous impact on the way that people who subscribe to them behave.

[Kimmo]

you mean like christianity promoting expansionist resource grabbing capitalism and smart bombs?

 

btw, still waiting for the pew poll link so often cited by you and harris.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Kimmo

[JayB]

and what percentage of the muslim world lives under autocratic control, propped by western interests, either now or very recent history?

 

Lots of it - but if simple repression was the answer we'd have seen a proportional number of Arab secularists, etc detonating themselves in Western discos. We haven't.

 

We'd also be remarking upon the complete absence of suicide bombers originating from Muslim communities in liberal western democracies, but we aren't.

 

We'd probably also see the propensity for engaging in acts of suicide bombing against civilians decreasing with wealth and education, but if anything, we're seeing vastly more doctors, engineers, and relatively privileged individuals than we are bedouin goatherds engaged in terrorism.

 

Finally - we'd also see an equal propensity for such violence across all belief groups who have been subject to sustained political repression, and we aren't.

 

If this was any other ideology - people wouldn't have such a difficult time connecting the dots.

[JayB]

There's a link in the other thread or you can avail yourself of Teh Google...

[Kimmo]

Hmmmm, the first thing I found was an extensive pew poll about how content Muslims are in America:

 

happy koran-reading muslims.

 

mebbe it was a different poll you are talking about?

[tvashtarkatena]

Such xenophobic comparisons have an agenda: our cult is better (more reformed, is it?). In reality, theism promotes repression by squelching individual self determination. Only liberal secular humanist beliefs and institutions, such as our wholly secular constitution, protect us from the tyranny of god-based absolute authority.

 

The claim that all moral systems that ground some of their precepts in supernatural claims are equally likely to promote violence and repression is every bit as ridiculous as the claim that all political ideologies are equally likely to do so.

 

No one in their right mind would blather on about the fundamental equivalence between fascism and pacifism, but there seems to be a surfeit of erstwhile progressives that are willing to indulge this kind of patent nonsense when it comes to religions.

 

Their fundamental doctrines are not all the same, they promote vastly different ethical norms and behaviors, and these have an enormous impact on the way that people who subscribe to them behave.

 

It's not ridiculous given the historical evidence. Take our own history. Our Christians were the strongest supporters of slavery. They continue to this day to be the strongest supporters of the repression of women, denigration of science, suppression of free expression, discrimination against gays...in general, the violation of our fundamental principle of the separation of church and state. They have been THE largest and most active enemy of the secular principles on our Constitution.

[tvashtarkatena]

and what percentage of the muslim world lives under autocratic control, propped by western interests, either now or very recent history?

 

Lots of it - but if simple repression was the answer we'd have seen a proportional number of Arab secularists, etc detonating themselves in Western discos. We haven't.

 

We'd also be remarking upon the complete absence of suicide bombers originating from Muslim communities in liberal western democracies, but we aren't.

 

We'd probably also see the propensity for engaging in acts of suicide bombing against civilians decreasing with wealth and education, but if anything, we're seeing vastly more doctors, engineers, and relatively privileged individuals than we are bedouin goatherds engaged in terrorism.

 

Finally - we'd also see an equal propensity for such violence across all belief groups who have been subject to sustained political repression, and we aren't.

 

If this was any other ideology - people wouldn't have such a difficult time connecting the dots.

 

What a load of hypothetical crap. We outsource our violence, to the state and its machines, or to proxy states and theirs - suicide bombers are do-it-yourselfers. The methods differ, the violence, and the religiously inspired philosophies that inspire it, are the same - both strongly encouraged and celebrated by the fundamentalists on both sides.