memorize this face!!!

[Raindawg]

was it raindawg?

 

No it wasn't.

But I got some observations.

 

1) I watched the video..it was disturbing several different ways. The "draw-poaching" guy wasn't straight forward, panicked, and spouted out a bunch of nonsense about worn 'biners and such.

He should have just 'fessed up that he was collecting booty from seemingly abandoned gear.

 

2) the people who confronted this guy were extremely condescending (talking to this guy as if he was 5 years old) and justifying their leaving of gear because it was a big, bad, "5.14" or whatever.

 

Well, another prespective would say that if you left your gear, and a guy could easily aid-climb it with a stick-clip because the bolts were so close together, then basically the so-called "5.14 climbers" were in the process of siege-climbing a route way over their heads. So maybe they should have left a sign at the base that said "Do Not Disturb, Siege Climb In Progress".

 

On the other hand, I think it's inappropriate to take things that don't belong to you when there is a grey area, that is, the possibility that someone might actually be coming back for their abandoned gear, fixed rope, etc. But I would be tempted to clean the left-behind debris and leave the draws clipped several bolts off the ground, or leave it with the rangers who might have their own opinion about such a dubious practice.

 

You so 5.14 tough? Have some respect and pull your gear when you're done playing for the day. You don't own the public space and you don't have a right to dominate it until you feel you're "finished with it". You got "the moves"? It shouldn't be a problem now, should it!

 

And all of you violence-spouting "tough guys" talking 'bout punching the dude out and such....go back into your savage caves cuz reality says, indignant or not, you gonna do jail time if you act-out like a thug. Guaranteed! You think the judge cares about your special "project" on public land????

Edited January 1, 2011 by Raindawg

[chirp]

was it raindawg?

 

No it wasn't.

But I got some observations.

 

1) I watched the video..it was disturbing several different ways. The "draw-poaching" guy wasn't straight forward, panicked, and spouted out a bunch of nonsense about worn 'biners and such.

He should have just 'fessed up that he was collecting booty from seemingly abandoned gear.

 

2) the people who confronted this guy were extremely condescending (talking to this guy as if he was 5 years old) and justifying their leaving of gear because it was a big, bad, "5.14" or whatever.

 

Well, another prespective would say that if you left your gear, and a guy could easily aid-climb it with a stick-clip because the bolts were so close together, then basically the so-called "5.14 climbers" were in the process of siege-climbing a route way over their heads. So maybe they should have left a sign at the base that said "Do Not Disturb, Siege Climb In Progress".

 

On the other hand, I think it's inappropriate to take things that don't belong to you when there is a grey area, that is, the possibility that someone might actually be coming back for their abandoned gear, fixed rope, etc. But I would be tempted to clean the left-behind debris and leave the draws clipped several bolts off the ground, or leave it with the rangers who might have their own opinion about such a dubious practice.

 

You so 5.14 tough? Have some respect and pull your gear when you're done playing for the day. You don't own the public space and you don't have a right to dominate it until you feel you're "finished with it". You got "the moves"? It shouldn't be a problem now, should it!

 

And all of you violence-spouting "tough guys" talking 'bout punching the dude out and such....go back into your savage caves cuz reality says, indignant or not, you gonna do jail time if you act-out like a thug. Guaranteed! You think the judge cares about your special "project" on public land????

 

[112]

...to clean the left-behind debris and leave the draws clipped several bolts off the ground, or leave it with the rangers who might have their own opinion about such a dubious practice.

I doubt this guy would bother if that was his option. He doesn't seem like the community service type.

 

2) the people who confronted this guy were extremely condescending (talking to this guy as if he was 5 years old) and justifying their leaving of gear because it was a big, bad, "5.14" or whatever.

Should they be like: I am glad we saw you before you left. Can we please have our gear back?

 

And all of you violence-spouting "tough guys" talking 'bout punching the dude out and such....go back into your savage caves cuz reality says, indignant or not, you gonna do jail time if you act-out like a thug. Guaranteed!

Doesn't the violence thing work the same way as jacking draws? As long as you don't get caught...

 

It's theft, plain and simple. Do you really support people jacking fixed draws (not returning them)? Clearly this was the guy's intention.

 

[stevetimetravlr]

was it raindawg?

 

No it wasn't.

But I got some observations.

 

1) I watched the video..it was disturbing several different ways. The "draw-poaching" guy wasn't straight forward, panicked, and spouted out a bunch of nonsense about worn 'biners and such.

He should have just 'fessed up that he was collecting booty from seemingly abandoned gear.

 

2) the people who confronted this guy were extremely condescending (talking to this guy as if he was 5 years old) and justifying their leaving of gear because it was a big, bad, "5.14" or whatever.

 

Well, another prespective would say that if you left your gear, and a guy could easily aid-climb it with a stick-clip because the bolts were so close together, then basically the so-called "5.14 climbers" were in the process of siege-climbing a route way over their heads. So maybe they should have left a sign at the base that said "Do Not Disturb, Siege Climb In Progress".

 

On the other hand, I think it's inappropriate to take things that don't belong to you when there is a grey area, that is, the possibility that someone might actually be coming back for their abandoned gear, fixed rope, etc. But I would be tempted to clean the left-behind debris and leave the draws clipped several bolts off the ground, or leave it with the rangers who might have their own opinion about such a dubious practice.

 

You so 5.14 tough? Have some respect and pull your gear when you're done playing for the day. You don't own the public space and you don't have a right to dominate it until you feel you're "finished with it". You got "the moves"? It shouldn't be a problem now, should it!

 

And all of you violence-spouting "tough guys" talking 'bout punching the dude out and such....go back into your savage caves cuz reality says, indignant or not, you gonna do jail time if you act-out like a thug. Guaranteed! You think the judge cares about your special "project" on public land????

 

MY HEAD JUST EXPLODED!!!

[pope]

"Siege climb in progress" means that anybody who wishes to climb the route is given only two options. He can either trust the gear of somebody he doesn't know, or he can wait six months until the "free climbers" have moved on. What's worse, monopolizing a route on public land or removing the gear with the intent of keeping it? But, this is sport climbing at Smith Rock. Ain't it wonderful?

 

 

[Raindawg]

Doesn't the violence thing work the same way as jacking draws? As long as you don't get caught...

 

No it doesn't. Quick-draws can't testify in court, but a black eye and a punched mouth sure can. Lots of vigilantes on this site, apparently. Three cheers for the climbing "community"!

 

It's theft, plain and simple. Do you really support people jacking fixed draws (not returning them)? Clearly this was the guy's intention.

 

It's not plain and simple. Collecting booty has a long tradition in climbing and you can run across all kinds of stuff on the crags and mountains, although it would be nice to make a reasonable attempt to find the owner if the situation suggests that reasonable. If the siege-climbers at Smith had pulled their "draws" it wouldn't have even been an issue. Again, I'd leave their stuff hanging on a bolt well off the ground or turn it into ranger where they can ask for it back.

[stevetimetravlr]

It is wonderful. Routes that fixed draws are on, they are generally on all the time. It allows ANYONE to climb those routes IF THEY HAVE THE ABILITY or at least to give the route a try and if they can't make it to pull the rope with no loss of gear. Most 5.13 and 5.14 routes need to be worked by most normal people over time to be able to climb them unless you are Ian Caldwell or Sharma or superhuman.

Its Smith Rock guys, just another Chosspile in the oregon desert.

 

[112]

No it doesn't. Quick-draws can't testify in court, but a black eye and a punched mouth sure can.

We have different definitions of "caught".

 

It's not plain and simple. Collecting booty has a long tradition in climbing and you can run across all kinds of stuff on the crags and mountains...

At some point it could be argued as community service, especially if the gear is actually unusable. But an enlighten individual such as your self should understand modern civilized society doesn't except just taking property. It has to be turned over to proper authorities and an attempt made to return it. Failing to do so negates the finders right to claim it if later the owner can't be found.

 

Which is it? Which set of rules are you arguing? Written or unwritten rules?

[Kimmo]

Doesn't the violence thing work the same way as jacking draws? As long as you don't get caught...

 

No it doesn't. Quick-draws can't testify in court, but a black eye and a punched mouth sure can. Lots of vigilantes on this site, apparently. Three cheers for the climbing "community"!

 

you seem to think it's simply an issue of "getting caught"?

 

what about the ethics of violence? i hardly equate the taking of gear left on public property with causing bodily injury to someone. the notion of "property" is a bit abstract to begin with, whereas violence is very concrete. not that the internet tough-guys spouting for violence here would have (most likely) done anything. well, i guess the fellow was kinda skinny and frightened. easy prey for internet tough guys. let the hens commence with pecking.

[Kimmo]

 

There was one great master, a Buddhist master, Nagarjuna. A thief came to him. The thief had fallen in love with the master because he had never seen such a beautiful person, such infinite grace. The thief asked Nagarjuna, "Is there some possibility of my growth also? But one thing I must make clear to you: I am a thief. And another thing: I cannot leave it, so please don't make it a condition. I will do whatsoever you say, but I cannot stop being a thief. That I have tried many times--it never works, so I have left the whole sport. I have accepted my destiny, that I am going to be a thief and remain a thief, so don't talk about it. From the very beginning let it be clear."

 

Nagarjuna said, "Why are you afraid? Who is going to talk about your being a thief?"

The thief said, "But whenever I go to a monk, to a religious priest, or to a religious saint, they always say, 'First stop stealing.'"

 

Nagarjuna laughed and said, "Then you must have gone to thieves; otherwise, why? Why should they be concerned? I am not concerned!"

 

The thief was very happy. He said, "Then it is okay. It seems that now I can become a disciple. You are the right master."

 

Nagarjuna accepted him and said, "Now you can go and do whatsoever you like. Only one condition has to be followed: be aware! Go, break into houses, enter, take things, steal; do whatsoever you like, that is of no concern to me, I am not a thief--but do it with full awareness."

 

The thief couldn't understand that he was falling into the trap. He said, "Then everything is okay. I will try." After three weeks he came back and said, "You are tricky--because if I become aware, I cannot steal. If I steal, awareness disappears. I am in a fix."

 

Nagarjuna said, "No more talk about your being a thief and stealing. I am not concerned; I am not a thief. Now, you decide! If you want awareness, then you decide. If you don't want it, then too you decide."

 

The man said, "But now it is difficult. I have tasted it a little, and it is so beautiful--I will leave anything, whatsoever you say. Just the other night for the first time I was able to enter the palace of the king. I opened the treasure. I could have become the richest man in the world--but you were following me and I had to be aware. When I became aware, diamonds looked just like stones, ordinary stones. When I lost awareness, the treasure was there. And I waited and did this many times. I would become aware and I became like a buddha, and I could not even touch it because the whole thing looked foolish, stupid--just stones, what am I doing? Losing myself over stones? But then I would lose awareness; they would become again beautiful, the whole illusion. But finally I decided that they were not worth it."

Edited January 1, 2011 by Kimmo

[Raindawg]

No it doesn't. Quick-draws can't testify in court, but a black eye and a punched mouth sure can.

We have different definitions of "caught".

 

It's not plain and simple. Collecting booty has a long tradition in climbing and you can run across all kinds of stuff on the crags and mountains...

At some point it could be argued as community service, especially if the gear is actually unusable. But an enlighten individual such as your self should understand modern civilized society doesn't except just taking property. It has to be turned over to proper authorities and an attempt made to return it. Failing to do so negates the finders right to claim it if later the owner can't be found.

 

Which is it? Which set of rules are you arguing? Written or unwritten rules?

 

Fine! Take'em down and turn them over to The Man, and let the "heroes of Smith" explain to them why they left hundreds of dollars worth of gear hanging for days on public land.

 

Smithster: "But dude! We were workin' on a 14a!!"

The Man: "huh???"

[Kimmo]

Sorry for calling any of you "hens". calls to violence always gross me out....

 

here's another good one:

 

When Bankei held his seclusion-weeks of meditation, pupils from many parts of Japan came to attend. During one of these gatherings a pupil was caught stealing. The matter was reported to Bankei with the request that the culprit be expelled. Bankei ignored the case.

 

Later the pupil was caught in a similar act, and again Bankei disregarded the matter. This angered the other pupils, who drew up a petition asking for the dismissal of the thief, stating that otherwise they would leave in a body.

 

When Bankei had read the petition he called everyone before him. "You are wise brothers," he told them. "You know what is right and what is not right. You may go somewhere else to study if you wish, but this poor brother does not even know right from wrong. Who will teach him if I do not? I am going to keep him here even if all the rest of you leave."

 

A torrent of tears cleansed the face of the brother who had stolen. All desire to steal had vanished.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2011 by Kimmo

[pcg]

I am not an experienced rockclimber and have no emotional stake in this debate. I am here to learn only and have a question...

 

How long can a quickdraw hang in the sun and moisture before it should be retired? I'm thinking here of UV damage to webbing and thread, in addition to occasional stress from falls.

[Kimmo]

2 years.

 

here's one more:

 

The Thief Who Became a Disciple

 

One evening as Shichiri Kojun was reciting sutras a thief with a sharp sword entered, demanding either money or his life.

 

Shichiri told him: "Do not disturb me. You can find the money in that drawer." Then he resumed his recitation.

 

A little while afterwards he stopped and called: "Don't take it all. I need some to pay taxes with tomorrow."

 

The intruder gathered up most of the money and started to leave. "Thank a person when you receive a gift," Shichiri added. The man thanked him and made off.

 

A few days afterwards the fellow was caught and confessed, among others, the offence against Shichiri. When Shichiri was called as a witness he said: "This man is no thief, at least as far as I am concerned. I gave him money and he thanked me for it."

 

After he had finished his prison term, the man went to Shichiri and became his disciple.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Kimmo

[el jefe]

it's interesting how the anti-sport climbing zealots such as raindawg keep trying to twist this dude's actions into some sort of ethical statement when it is clear from the video he is just some unprincipled scumbag who got caught stealing. whether it is okay to leave gear hanging on a route is a different question from whether it is okay to mess with it. raindawg decries the vigilantes who would put a beat down on the scruffy lout, but proudly boasts how he would collect the draws and hang them on a bolt well off the ground -- which act amounts to vigilantism, too. but of course, in the mind of the zealot, his version of vigilantism is always justified.

 

this guy is a thief, plain and simple. if you believe the people who left the draws on the route "deserve" to have them taken, then you probably also believe a woman who wears a short skirt is "asking for it".

[G-spotter]

if you believe the people who left the draws on the route "deserve" to have them taken, then you probably also believe a woman who wears a short skirt is "asking for it".

 

if your logic works like this, then you probably also make turd sandwiches with wonder bread and feces when you run out of peanut butter. see?

[Choada_Boy]

I couldn't watch the whole video, too embarrassing for both sides.

 

Side A) Thief Sociopath who couldn't give two shits.

 

Side B) Morally Outraged but offers only a stern lecture while the camera runs for future Internet posting.

 

Videotaping and posting to the interwebs does nothing. Draws are gone. The party that had a problem with this should have solved their problem and restored the balance, otherwise, move along.

 

Alternate Ending (at 0:01): "Those aren't yours. You are going to give them to me so that I may attempt to return them to their rightful owners. You have no choice in this matter."

[el jefe]

if you believe the people who left the draws on the route "deserve" to have them taken, then you probably also believe a woman who wears a short skirt is "asking for it".

 

if your logic works like this, then you probably also make turd sandwiches with wonder bread and feces when you run out of peanut butter. see?

 

i'd say this is a new level of incomprehensible gibberish even for g-spotter.

[kukuzka1]

Kimmo to much reading

[112]

Fine! Take'em down and turn them over to The Man, and let the "heroes of Smith" explain to them why they left hundreds of dollars worth of gear hanging for days on public land.

I agree with you 100% but doubt this guy would do the community service without the possible 'salvage'.

 

Sorry for calling any of you "hens". calls to violence always gross me out....

I am not for violence. If you thought that it was assumed. I asked if jacking draws and violence were similar in some way. I don't understand the pro jacking draws, but con violence argument, from a logic standpoint. Excellent quotes Kimmo.

[Kimmo]

Hey 112.

 

Wasn't directed at you, since you weren't calling for the guy's head. I could see what you were trying to get an explanation for, I think.

 

but in my mind, like I said above, physically hurting someone is in a different category altogether than taking some quick-draws off a piece of public property (I'm not condoning qd theft btw). I simply don't see the comparison. It's actually kinda strange (and funny) that that people were (are) calling for violence as a "solution" to what this fellow did! "let ye who hath not sinned, cast the first stone."

[layton]

i wouldn't judge these guys by what they said. it's really hard to handle confrontation in real time. in so many words they bitched the guy out and asked for their stuff back.

 

Regardless of the ethics of bolting, leaving draws, working routes, etc..., the dude was obviously stealing with intent, and it was probably very satisfying to have it caught on tape.

[rl23455]

Nice Budhhist stories, but sadly I find most people don't even want to try to "grow".

 

To prevent future instances, maybe the Park regulations should be amended to allow working projects. I don't suppose they called the authorities?

Edited January 2, 2011 by rl23455

[Kimmo]

Nice Budhhist stories, but sadly I find most people don't even want to try to "grow".

 

To prevent future instances, maybe the Park regulations should be amended to allow working projects. I don't suppose they called the authorities?

 

a basic misunderstanding exists if you think it's about "other" people needing to "grow"; your "sadness" bears witness to this (not picking on you here).

 

inre second point: i really don't know if there is any legal framework that addresses the issue at hand.

[soulreaper]

Those parables speak volumes and are well placed here.