AlpineK Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I was checking out the article CJZ is talking about. There are some nice pictures in there that make Snoqualmie pass look really good. After reading the story, I come away with a few questions though. I'm sure Phil and Greg discovered the Slot/Enigma couloir for themselves, and I'm all for going places and figuring out stuff for yourself. However it does seem disingenuous to never mention in the article that the couloir has another name (Slot). Certainly if someone were looking for Beta telling them the couloir was also called the Slot couloir and there is a description in Martin Volken's Snoqualmie pass guide would be a big help. Now help me out here. Martin lists the couloir as the, "Slot," and the first descent being made by Jan Kordel. Yet when I read the article I come away with the impression that Phil and Greg did the first descent, though they never come out and say that. Perhaps I missed something, but if Martin is right then I think this fact should have been part of the story. I may be stirring up a hornets nest, but I would like to hear Phil and or Greg's views on this. [ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 On rereading the Couloir article I do see a reference in small print at the bottom of the article citing Martin's book as a source, but I still see no reference to the name, "Slot." It seems to me you are implicitly saying you got a first descent with the article title, "Discovering the Enigma Couloir," and no reference to either the Slot Couloir or the first descender that Martin cites. [ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 AlpineK, you seem to be talking to someone ("you") as if they've had some input to what you've said. I know that the article in question was written long before the new Volken guide came out (12/1/2001), and that they were in no way implying that they made the first descent. That would be like skiing down from Great Scott bowl and claiming a FD-- everybody goes there. Maybe Couloir didn't want mention of it's other name, who knows. BTW, "Discovering" doesn't actually imply first knowledge (unless that's what you want to read, of course). Definition: To notice or learn, especially by making an effort. The mere fact that it is already written up in a book should give some readers a clue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegirl Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 Discovering in climbing seems to infer that one found a "new" route. (up or down) When I used to dive shipwrecks that were well beyond the recreational limit, if I knew that a commercial team had already been there (which was 99% of the time) I would never use the term "Discovered" when writing to the diving rags. I'd say usually say "explored" or likewise, even though in many cases we were the "first" recreational team to dive that wreck Just my take. [ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: icegirl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjizzy Posted January 27, 2002 Author Share Posted January 27, 2002 Big article in Couloir Mag today about the Enigma Couloir, whats all the hype about. When is AlpineK going to write up the Cannon Mountain Couloir for Arbor Age or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 The you I'm referring to is Greg and Phil. I'm requesting input from them publicly dbb since the article was printed in a magazine with national circulation. I've checked out Phil's site and read his trip report, and to his credit he says near the end of the report that they found out the couloir had been skied previously. Since he, and I assume Greg, knew (over a year ago) that the couloir had been skied before this should have been written in to the article. If Couloir edited this part out then they shouldn't have. But if Greg omitted the fact and used the word, "Discovering," in the article title then he is being disingenuous. Either way an article that provides a route description, in a magizine with national circulation, should contain accurate information. Oh and I'm with Icegirl on the use of the word, "Discovering." While dbb's dictionary may be accurate, without citing other descents and names to the couloir Greg (or Couloir mag) is passively implying a first descent. [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 You all suck! Especially Dan Larson! Fred Beckey probably skied it back in 1943 with his brother Helmey and never bothered to tell anyone because they thought it was a meager accomplishment I missed the ice fest I had to work.. oh well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjizzy Posted January 28, 2002 Author Share Posted January 28, 2002 [i know that the article in question was written long before the [b]new[/b] Volken guide came out (12/1/2001i] The mere fact that it is already written up in a book should give some readers a clue...[/QB] Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth here or what dbb? I think it was clearly a disingenous article, when the fact that the gully had previous descents was probable. Your very own arguments negate themselves. As a spin control master, you suck. [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: crazyjz ] [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: crazyjz ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 first off, agreed capt. This is far too much spray for such an issue. In fact, the people in question are actually out enjoying the sweet skiing. crazyjz, I was actually responding to two different parts of people posts. If you read my statements un-contextually, yes, they seem to contradict themselves. Some clarification: 1)Certainly if someone were looking for Beta telling them the couloir was also called the Slot couloir and there is a description in Martin Volken's Snoqualmie pass guide would be a big help. --> book published mainstream after article was written. 2) when I read the article I come away with the impression that Phil and Greg did the first descent, though they never come out and say that --> well, if it's in a book, you add two and two together. (wait, maybe I should spell things out again for you: doh, it's in a published then maybe they just had fun skiing it.) anyhow, who cares... it's just skiing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 First off dbb! I like spray so let's not go there. I just think that it might be a cool ski run and may have been done in '73 for all we know by some ski junkie out of state. Those peaks back there are in close proximity to the highway..... Anyway I am banging away at my computer and wish I was stabbing big fangs of icicles in the hills today. Can't win em all though. Perhaps I will bash some icicles into submission in the next few days with this cold spell Maybe I can blow up Halling on this paintball shootout [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by dbb: --> well, if it's in a book, you add two and two together. (wait, maybe I should spell things out again for you: doh, it's in a published then maybe they just had fun skiing it.) anyhow, who cares... it's just skiing. In the article Greg uses the name Enigma, but never Slot for the couloir, and he never cites any other descents. Also I take issue with use of the word, "discovering," in the title. My main point is you get to name a route if you are the first up or down it, or if after a long search you can't find the first ascender/descender. In this case the couloir already had a name no matter how much you might like the name, "Enigma." [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeadam Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Martin Volken's guide was well into planning phase LONG before Phil and Greg skied it or even booted the couloir and printed the information on the old praxis.etla website. There are numerous older copies of that guide floating about as evidence, and the final FALCON printed version was stalled for many many reasons beyond explanation here. If you search through these posts you'll find that months ago I made mention on this website that the couloir was termed the enigma gulley by Phil and his tong after they booted it in 99 or something. The local long existing ski tong had LONG AGO dubbed it the slot. If someone wants to call it Enigma and write an article well.... Whatever...I haven't seen the article, don't read that schwag, can't stand the industry. I would rather be skiing blues all day on 210cm straight skis than beating my chest here. I'll do it anyway... [ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: mikeadam ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mikeadam: I would rather be skiing blues all day on 210cm straight skis than beating my chest here. I'll do it anyway...[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: mikeadam ] Me too. I'm just waiting for the snow pack to settle and or the weekend resort crowds to go back to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I find it funny to get riled up about it. Who did what first beat chest here It's a ski run and it could have been done ages ago. Not like it was Troy Juengen (alkiholik smokathon maniak) and padna skiing off the NF or Robson I hope to read the article if I ever see it laying on someone's coffee table. Until then carve your turns on the Freshiez and have a killer day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 i wrote the article. i'm not interested in having a flame war but i'll attempt to answer some of the questions raised here. phil and i assumed when we first booted up it that people probably skied it all the time. given it's easy access and moderate angle we didn't think it was a big deal. mike adamson emailed us saying people had been skiing it for years and were calling it the slot couloir. we were not surprised. i originally submitted the article last may or thereabouts. it was originally somewhat longer and went into great detail about how we got the route out of beckey, skied it, found out other people did, and so forth. they asked me to trim it down for a "peaks and passes" segment; a brief description of backcountry skiing people do in different parts. they asked me to look at other "peaks and passes" stories and make mine similar. i attempted to comply with their request by making it a simple but entertaining description of some dudes going backcountry skiing, and in so doing left out the "slot couloir" name and a lot of other details. it didn't seem important given the nature of the subject matter; it's just another line. i had already sent them my final draft when i happened to flip through an advance copy of martin volken's book at second bounce. i had originally entitled my story "enigma gully" as a descriptor of our experiences. couloir made the title "discovering enigma gully". i don't think they were implying a first descent. in summary: 1) i don't were all this first descent allegations came from. 2) volken's book wasn't out when i wrote the story. if i had known it was coming out yes it would have been useful to people to call it the slot couloir. 3) given the nature of the story i think who did the first ascent is a technical detail most readers would be uninterested in. other "peaks and passes" stories don't include that kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 the only reference that i have ever heard of it called the enigma gully was by phil and greg...i have herard about the slot coulior for a couple years talk to the boyz at alpental and they will look at you dunbly if you ask about engima....i think it goes like this "hey man you skied the engima coulir??" "what?""you know that sketchy slot up on the north side of snoq.""oh yeah me and my dog skied that after a 1/4 oz sniffer and a couple shotz from ole silver, my gramps skied it in leaters and woodies back in 48 after the war.""word!" it sounds like you didn't do complete researxh for the article. martin's book has been around for way more then a year.... i would personnally say that you should write a retraction to couloir mag and have them correct your oversights.....if not i am sure a couple other people will... is this more of a sellout then k.b. @ the tnf??? selling local secrets for a buck?? git a rope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by gregm: in summary: 1) i don't were all this first descent allegations came from. Yeah, me neither... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfort Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik:[QB]it sounds like you didn't do complete researxh for the article. martin's book has been around for way more then a year....[QB] Wrong. Martin's book just came out a few months ago. Maybe there were 'secret copies' floating around, but I guess I'm not in with that crowd. The first time it appeared in the stores was late this fall. First of all, we'll call it whatever we damn well please. The first time I had *ever* heard the term 'slot couloir', was when Mike Adamson mentioned it in response to a post here by John Sharp who climbed it the same day we skied it. I had already been using the term "Enigma Gully" for a year. I'm sorry, but we're not "in" with the backcountry ski crowd at Alpental, so we didn't know what the 'proper' name was. Does "slot couloir" have some special significance or something? You guys make it sound like we're chest-beating about this ground-breaking descent. C'mon! It was a big deal for us, and that's all. I'm not a great skier, and it was the steepest line I've ever skied, so it was a big deal for me, and one of the best runs of my life. What made it even better is that we'd never heard of anyone else skiing it - so, no beta. Uh, sorry for not knowing the "right people". I fully realize skiing it is no big deal for many skiers, such as AlpineK. We certainly never even considered that it could be first descent, and I'm sure Greg did not mean to imply that in his article. The first draft he let me read (as he indicated above) made it clear that it had been skied before. And also that it "others call it the Slot Couloir". (and as I said, the only mention we'd ever heard of that term was from one mikeadam post). Some of you seem really hurt and offended by his article. Why don't you write couloir and get them to "correct" the "mis-information" you think got printed, and indicate the "correct" name. On a lighter note, the snow this weekend was absolutely epic. I think I logged over 5000 vertical feet of nearly continous face shots through two and half feet of fluffy powder. [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: philfort ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 ignorance is no excuse and i am the worst skier, so there and i am just strying to stip up some shit....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakioawa Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Phil, Great article and web site. For what its worth both make me want to ski it. I don't really care who skied what, when, how any why. All I know is this coulior has my name on in now and were it not for you I wouldn't know about it. And that is really all I care about it. Agrument for argument sake can be fun at times. But somtimes it gets a little old. I keep waiting to hear an argument about benefits of right vs. left handed belaying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by hakioawa: ........Agrument for argument sake can be fun at times. But somtimes it gets a little old. I keep waiting to hear an argument about benefits of right vs. left handed belaying. Right hand is the only way!! Only losers use their left hand!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Several years ago I was climbing at Smith when a non-local legend and entourage came up and started climbing next to us. At least two of the crew were long-time Valley folks. For the ensuing 45 minutes, I listened to (overheard) one story after another about lies that other non-local legends had told about their exploits in the Valley. According to these two, MANY claims of clean ascents, free ascents, solo ascents, speed records, etc., were distortions of the truth or wholly false, despite being published and well known. My point is that just because you read it, doesn't mean its true. And if you hold up the claims in a climbing rag to the same standard of truth, completeness, and accuracy as a textbook, then you are in for a lot of disappointment. The most honestly named climing book I've ever seen is "The Burgess Book of Lies". It's cool they got published. I haven't seen the article, but if ya gotta read between the lines to say they are claiming a first descent, then I don't see what the big deal is about. That aside, there are multiple couloirs on the northern aspects of Snoqualmie. Anyone have info on the others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Sounds like the community that makes myself the "Black Sheep" of the so called "Climbing Community" is something like this but not quite. I don't care about the skiing community or climbing. All I know is I can flail and I do it great. I can ski greens and blues I like beating my chest and saying how bad ass I am too. Especially when people bite it like bait and respond how meager my accomplishments are. It never really matters as long as you and your buds are enjoying life and fulfilling your goals or dreams. I don't think I could ever write an article or web page that seems to interest a great deal of people. That's why I just stick to photos. Look better anyway. The only interesting writing I do is SprayFest here and on alpineshite. Werd! All I know is I am gonnna be like a bull in a cage come the weekend of Feb 9th! Beckey probably climbed and skied all that shit anyway SO much animosity, and I like it! It's not directed at me for once! Going back to find my photos of rockies with Fred. Now that is chestbeater material! Woohoo and I dont give a damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfort Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CascadeClimber: That aside, there are multiple couloirs on the northern aspects of Snoqualmie. Anyone have info on the others? Martin Volken's book describes the "Crooked couloir", the next one to the east of enigma gully. Better not call it anything else or shit will fly!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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