Mythbusting attacks against public workers

[Nitrox]

Don't forget "cockstain".

 

Thank you! In fact I haven't been playing with jb for long and had forgotten it. Isn't that 2 words.... "Cock Stain".

 

A full sentence as jb might use it in his political discourse threads to help people understand his viewpoint might then be "you fucking fuckwit jackass Cock Stain." I will defer to Ivan as he is a teacher and will know this.

 

"Assclown" is always popular too.

[j_b]

When was the last time regressive retards actually made a comment on topic? these dimwits like it when you grovel in the mud with them.

[j_b]

when I call somebody names it has to do with the policies they advocate, not my imagination, jackass.

Well what do ya know: that's the same with me you worthless, ignorant, parasitical piece of shit. .....See, we have that in common!

 

well that was a valueless exchange.

 

You are a simpleton if you think that calling me a parasitical piece of shit (when you don't know anything about me) is equivalent to me calling you a regressive or a warmonger.

[Fairweather]

If you're job is all you care about...

 

Sorry...the A students are still in charge.

 

 

Your

[Fairweather]

Fairweather: If my employees did that, I'd be concerned that something was really wrong in my company and some serious work,

reorganization, and conversation needed to happen.

 

Fair enough. Now, suppose you had used the money of investors to start a much larger business--investors who expected a return. And suppose that acquiescing to the demands of your now-organized employees meant that your ability to borrow from these investors for future projects was severely diminished. Exactly how would that serve the interests of the employees for whom you care so deeply?

[ivan]

so, all those in favor of paying slave-wages, raise yer hand.

 

and why should anyone respect your opinion when you hold others' lives in such low esteem?

 

should i be convinced your indifference is enlightened just b/c you have a big bank and a # of equally morally-bankrupt motherfuckers on your side?

[JayB]

 

I've never heard a defensible case for public employees unionizing, which is probably why FDR, Fiorello LaGuardia, and George Meany were all strongly opposed to it.

 

I can see how public sector unions serve the private interests of public sector employees, but it's never been clear how the public benefits from them.

 

What's your argument?

 

the public benefits when teachers are paid well and work in a good environment - what well qualified teacher would want to work in a place that treats him like a slave? do you want your kids' teachers to be indistinguisable from wal-mart employees?

 

teacher unions organized precisely b/c that's how they were being treated, as slaves - how do you propose public employees exert influence to insure they're treated fairly? i suppose they could use the election process, but that's much more unwieldy and requires getting a lot of people who have no direct connection to the problem to get involved.

 

If we're going to focus on teachers alone here for the moment....

 

-There are plenty of places with incredibly strong unions and abyssmal performance in every metric. Whatever alchemy makes for good schools, it's clear that unionized teachers aren't a necessary component.

 

- Private schools seem to be able to attract enough teachers to educate their students without whatever pay and security enhancements teachers offer. Whatever keeps teachers walking in the door every day, it doesn't seem to be something that only a unionized environment can provide.

 

-Things were rough all over back in the day. It's not clear that teachers had it any worse than a gazillion other lines of work. It's also no more clear that you need union control of public schools to ensure satisfactory working conditions for teachers than it is that you need to keep the Union Army staffed and on alert to prevent a reversion to slavery.

 

-I propose that teachers exert their influence by either leaving the profession if the working conditions and compensation aren't adequate for them, or declining to enter it in the first place. Whatever private schools offer seems sufficient to secure teachers of equal or higher caliber. If that's less than someone feels they're entitled to, too bad. There are plenty of other options out there.

 

It's also an open question whether or not the teacher's unions actually makes for a better environment for the best teachers. It's clearly beneficial for the worst.

 

When it came time for staffing cuts at my high school, the most gifted, inspirational teacher there got the chop. Pretty much a travesty for all concerned, except for the undermotivated sack with more seniority and lots of union-pull who got her spot.

[JayB]

so, all those in favor of paying slave-wages, raise yer hand.

 

and why should anyone respect your opinion when you hold others' lives in such low esteem?

 

should i be convinced your indifference is enlightened just b/c you have a big bank and a # of equally morally-bankrupt motherfuckers on your side?

 

Are private school teachers paid slave wages, and if so - why do they accept them in the first place, much less stay on for an extra helping each year.

 

If X dollars is enough to get private school teachers in the door, why should the public pay any more than that if the purpose of public spending on education is to benefit children, and not to provide a private windfall for a particular vocation?

 

The general argument here seems to be that the purpose of government *is* to provide a private windfall to those on the public payroll, but that's a tough one to square with the typical rhetoric from your typical self-styled progressive.

 

The funny thing is that a large part of the impetus for the original Progressive movement was widespread anger and revulsion at waste, graft, and patronage amongst those trafficking in public funds.

[ivan]

most private schools pay much worse than public schools, and the typical private school does no better than the typical public school

 

i've haven't met more than a dozen or so private school teachers, but not a single one of them was happy w/ the environment or pay, and they'd all moved on after a couple years - private schools have big problems w/ staff turnover - the typcial conception of a private school is the blue-blooded swanky affairs of the ivy league feeder system (which do pay well, as they should, since they're for rich kids) but that's not the reality

 

it's plenty easy to have a strong union and a shitty performing school - teachers are but a single part of the equation afterall, no?

 

come by my house sometime w/ your bean-counting materials and please evaluate how high on the hog i'm living on my public salary if i hadn't been fortunate enough to have parents who could pay for my education, help me buy my house, give me their old cars, buy my kids all the big-ticket kid items they required, etc. i'd be drowning in debt - as it is it's nip n' tuck every month and pbr n' shitty wine n' a climbing rack that scares the fuck out of most folks i climb, and nothing better to look forward to than that for as long as i stick w/ this line of work

[Off_White]

Fairweather: If my employees did that, I'd be concerned that something was really wrong in my company and some serious work,

reorganization, and conversation needed to happen.

 

Fair enough. Now, suppose you had used the money of investors to start a much larger business--investors who expected a return. And suppose that acquiescing to the demands of your now-organized employees meant that your ability to borrow from these investors for future projects was severely diminished. Exactly how would that serve the interests of the employees for whom you care so deeply?

 

The notion of a rate of return for an investor as the highest moral value is one of the roots of the problem we're talking about, isn't it? The sort of venture you're describing doesn't place any great value on the interests of its employees in the first place.

[Fairweather]

so, all those in favor of paying slave-wages, raise yer hand.

 

and why should anyone respect your opinion when you hold others' lives in such low esteem?

 

should i be convinced your indifference is enlightened just b/c you have a big bank and a # of equally morally-bankrupt motherfuckers on your side?

 

Sounds like you have no answer to my question so you're turning to a personal attack.

[Fairweather]

Fairweather: If my employees did that, I'd be concerned that something was really wrong in my company and some serious work,

reorganization, and conversation needed to happen.

 

Fair enough. Now, suppose you had used the money of investors to start a much larger business--investors who expected a return. And suppose that acquiescing to the demands of your now-organized employees meant that your ability to borrow from these investors for future projects was severely diminished. Exactly how would that serve the interests of the employees for whom you care so deeply?

 

The notion of a rate of return for an investor as the highest moral value is one of the roots of the problem we're talking about, isn't it? The sort of venture you're describing doesn't place any great value on the interests of its employees in the first place.

 

Not at all. I think the interests of the wage earner, the profiteer, and the landlord should all be valued equally. It's leftists like j_b who entertain the fantasy that the system will continue to work if this balance is tilted dramatically toward the worker. Shareholders are people too.

[Fairweather]

come by my house sometime w/ your bean-counting materials and please evaluate how high on the hog i'm living on my public salary if i hadn't been fortunate enough to have parents who could pay for my education, help me buy my house, give me their old cars, buy my kids all the big-ticket kid items they required, etc. i'd be drowning in debt - as it is it's nip n' tuck every month and pbr n' shitty wine n' a climbing rack that scares the fuck out of most folks i climb, and nothing better to look forward to than that for as long as i stick w/ this line of work

 

And yet you can still afford to smoke pot every day...

[ivan]

come by my house sometime w/ your bean-counting materials and please evaluate how high on the hog i'm living on my public salary if i hadn't been fortunate enough to have parents who could pay for my education, help me buy my house, give me their old cars, buy my kids all the big-ticket kid items they required, etc. i'd be drowning in debt - as it is it's nip n' tuck every month and pbr n' shitty wine n' a climbing rack that scares the fuck out of most folks i climb, and nothing better to look forward to than that for as long as i stick w/ this line of work

 

And yet you can still afford to smoke pot every day...

shows how well you know me

 

how is it a personal attack to inquire wether you support the exploitation of your fellow man?

 

a personal attack would be to call you a scat-munching ass-clown

 

what was your question?

[billcoe]

You are a simpleton if you think that calling me a parasitical piece of shit (when you don't know anything about me) is equivalent to me calling you a fuckwit

So be it then, obviously I fall far behind you in the insulting game although you still remain a mean spirited dumbass and a Fuckwit.

 

Another quality exchange which you have initiated. Assmunch. Hey, I'm getting better at this. If it keeps up, maybe in a year I can play in your league you loathsome bleeding hemorrhoid!

[Fairweather]

what was your question?

 

Ok. That was funny.

[selkirk]

To those with the Stamina, patience, and calling to teach

 

To the rest of you arm chair quarterbacks

 

And every educator I've talked to has made the same evaluation of Private schools. Usually they're hiring people who either aren't certified or for some other reason couldn't get hired into the public school system.

[j_b]

You are a simpleton if you think that calling me a parasitical piece of shit (when you don't know anything about me) is equivalent to me calling you POST EDITED BY BILLCOE a fuckwit

So be it then, obviously I fall far behind you in the insulting game although you still remain a mean spirited dumbass and a Fuckwit.

 

Another quality exchange which you have initiated. Assmunch. Hey, I'm getting better at this. If it keeps up, maybe in a year I can play in your league you loathsome bleeding hemorrhoid!

 

if you think that your inane profanities are going to prevent me from calling the games played by regressives the way I see them, you are even more naive than I thought.

[j_b]

the public benefits when teachers are paid well and work in a good environment - what well qualified teacher would want to work in a place that treats him like a slave? do you want your kids' teachers to be indistinguisable from wal-mart employees?

 

teacher unions organized precisely b/c that's how they were being treated, as slaves - how do you propose public employees exert influence to insure they're treated fairly? i suppose they could use the election process, but that's much more unwieldy and requires getting a lot of people who have no direct connection to the problem to get involved.

 

If we're going to focus on teachers alone here for the moment....

 

-There are plenty of places with incredibly strong unions and abyssmal performance in every metric. Whatever alchemy makes for good schools, it's clear that unionized teachers aren't a necessary component.

 

Your logic is poor. Going from "there are unions and the product isn't good" to "therefore unions aren't good" just doesn't follow.

 

 

- Private schools seem to be able to attract enough teachers to educate their students without whatever pay and security enhancements teachers offer. Whatever keeps teachers walking in the door every day, it doesn't seem to be something that only a unionized environment can provide.

 

Bullshit, unions brought many benefits for teachers and others.

 

-Things were rough all over back in the day. It's not clear that teachers had it any worse than a gazillion other lines of work. It's also no more clear that you need union control of public schools to ensure satisfactory working conditions for teachers than it is that you need to keep the Union Army staffed and on alert to prevent a reversion to slavery.

 

what drivel ...

 

-I propose that teachers exert their influence by either leaving the profession if the working conditions and compensation aren't adequate for them, or declining to enter it in the first place. Whatever private schools offer seems sufficient to secure teachers of equal or higher caliber. If that's less than someone feels they're entitled to, too bad. There are plenty of other options out there.

 

per usual, libertarians are out to lunch ...

 

It's also an open question whether or not the teacher's unions actually makes for a better environment for the best teachers. It's clearly beneficial for the worst.

 

When it came time for staffing cuts at my high school, the most gifted, inspirational teacher there got the chop. Pretty much a travesty for all concerned, except for the undermotivated sack with more seniority and lots of union-pull who got her spot.

 

is that in your expert opinion?

[billcoe]

if you think that your inane profanities are going to prevent me from calling the games played by regressives the way I see them, you are even more naive than I thought.

 

Not at all, be my guest. I will say - at the risk of being called racist again: Chechen isn't a race. Neither is Muslim. Someone who says something disparaging about Chechen or Muslims or Chechen Muslims alone based on a single mother killing her Westernized Daughter isn't a racist. I realize now that you think a person claiming such is a racist, or that even someone who suggests that a person who says that disparaging comment about Chechen Muslims is not a racist then becomes one in your eyes.

 

I hope that helps you along in your own personal naivety scene as well.

 

...and now, back to your usual scheduled stupidity falsely attacking others for your own perceived impressions about there believes.....whew, in fact, I'm really done talking to you at all.

[Stonehead]

Comrade,

We hold no prejudices in the Party. Together we stand as One against the forces of disunity. We boldly march forward to a glorious future with the Party as our common identity. Long live the Party!

 

 

[Stonehead]

Seems that WEA was instrumental in assuring that Washington State did not share in funding under the Race to the Top initiative. The issue was something about performance or outcome based evaluation of teachers. Or was it about charter schools? In any event it appears that WEA seems to have become a regressive force in ensuring a quality education for residents of Washington.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

You are a simpleton if you think that calling me a parasitical piece of shit (when you don't know anything about me) is equivalent to me calling you POST EDITED BY BILLCOE a fuckwit

So be it then, obviously I fall far behind you in the insulting game although you still remain a mean spirited dumbass and a Fuckwit.

 

Another quality exchange which you have initiated. Assmunch. Hey, I'm getting better at this. If it keeps up, maybe in a year I can play in your league you loathsome bleeding hemorrhoid!

 

if you think that your inane profanities are going to prevent me from calling the games played by regressives the way I see them, you are even more naive than I thought.

 

Get a fucking life already.

[Off_White]

I will say - at the risk of being called racist again: Chechen isn't a race. Neither is Muslim. Someone who says something disparaging about Chechen or Muslims or Chechen Muslims alone based on a single mother killing her Westernized Daughter isn't a racist. I realize now that you think a person claiming such is a racist, or that even someone who suggests that a person who says that disparaging comment about Chechen Muslims is not a racist then becomes one in your eyes.

 

Yeah, I suppose one would just be a bigot, not much of a step up the social evolutionary ladder though.

 

How does that work with Jews? I mean, it can be an ethnicity, but it can also merely be a religious choice. So disparaging Judaism is not racist, right? It isn't even anti-Semitic since one could feel quite differently about their secular friends of Jewish extraction.

[billcoe]

How does that work with Jews? I mean, it can be an ethnicity, but it can also merely be a religious choice. So disparaging Judaism is not racist, right? It isn't even anti-Semitic since one could feel quite differently about their secular friends of Jewish extraction.

 

Idunno. I'll consult the Talmud and get back to you. I've heard the explanation before, but it's better to not try and duplicate it in words as I'm sure it's been done more thoroughly than I could here. Certainly if, after watching the Israeli commandos kill some Turkish dudes on a flotilla if I heard anyone mutter in exasperation "Fucking Israelis" or Fucking Jews", in my mind that wouldn't be a racist comment by itself any more than if someone said "Fucking Pentecostals"...over something about that group that annoyed them. My neighbors are Penecostals and great people, but I'd understand the comment.

 

I made a similar mistake once when I heard an exasperated person claim that "the Samoans were taking over". It later turns out that they had bought every house on the block, including hers which she was renting. Every damn one. She turned out to be one of the least racist persons I've ever met. It was just a factual statement which I misunderstood the first go round. One of my wife's closer friends at the time, who was just a sweetheart of a nice person, was Samoan and I at first took the comment as offensive.

 

I see many people rush to similar judgment in similar things around here, especially jb. I suspect if we could get jb to tell us who he really is, he'd be nicer and less judgmentally wrong all the time.