Regressive Alert! Euroland and NYT!!!!

[billcoe]

So, the WHOLE bank are looters, or the just Board, or what? Anybody who has invested in Chase is a looter?

 

I thought it would be more complicated than that for some reason.

 

It is complex, start by looking into the Federal reserve and some of the allegations against JP Morgan. It's very reminiscent on the computer programmers back in the day who had a computer send over any fractional and partial change to their own account. With millions of transactions, the amounts get huge. Obfuscation is the name of the game.

[rob]

Nah, I think I'll just arbitrarily label all major corporations "looters" instead (except corporations I like, and Al Gore). I prefer delusional simplicity to cautious rationality.

[prole]

western entitlement state

 

OH YEAH, NEW LINGO!!! PUT THAT SHIT ON THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTES INTERWEBS, MAN!! YOU'LL BE A STAR! CALL SARAH PALIN AND NEWT, THIS ONE'S HOT OFF THE GRIDDLE!

[billcoe]

I'm merely suggesting that we might want to stop digging before we join them there.

 

Agreed. We've had borrow and spend repubs like Bush that have been driving the bus off the cliff. These wars are costly, and the pay off will be years in coming - if ever. We must absolutely reduce our expenses ASAP.

 

ps, Al Gores father was one of the biggest "looters" this country has ever seen.

Edited May 27, 2010 by billcoe

[rob]

So, the WHOLE bank are looters, or the just Board, or what? Anybody who has invested in Chase is a looter?

 

I thought it would be more complicated than that for some reason.

 

It is complex, start by looking into the Federal reserve and some of the allegations against JP Morgan. It's very reminiscent on the computer programmers back in the day who had a computer send over any fractional and partial change to their own account. With millions of transactions, the amounts get huge. Obfuscation is the name of the game.

 

Youtube video?

[j_b]

it all adds up, millions here, billions there....

 

"The Manhattan Institute concerns itself with such things as 'welfare reform' (dismantling social programs), 'faith-based initiatives' (blurring the distinction between church and state), and 'education reform' (destroying public education),"

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Research

 

go figure, a Reaganite telling us that Unions and labor costs are responsible for budget shortfall

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

western entitlement state

 

OH YEAH, NEW LINGO!!! PUT THAT SHIT ON THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTES INTERWEBS, MAN!! YOU'LL BE A STAR! CALL SARAH PALIN AND NEWT, THIS ONE'S HOT OFF THE GRIDDLE!

 

Yeah, JayB, just what the fuck is THAT supposed to mean? I guess access to public health care makes one a pussy or something. Let's start another war.

 

It's all about priorities, not entitlement. That's so much Right Wing Bullshit.

[j_b]

Incidentally, I've been seeing that phrase, "the looters" a lot. Can I get a list of who is a member of this organization? Is that basically anybody who is rich? Or only rich republicans? Can democratic fatcats be looters too? Or, is anybody you don't like a "looter?"

 

Can you name some billionaire titans of industry that are NOT looters? Just for comparison.

 

looters are neoliberals or dead-enders (I prefer that later one) who under the guise of restructuring for efficiency a) plunder the public coffers (bailouts, corporate welfare, free loans from the FED, ..) and tell us there is no money for social programs, wages and pensions, b) plunder natural resources and tell us there is no problem with destroying the environment, c) loot the resources of developing nations while they claim to reduce their debt, etc ...

 

In my mind, the Capital One commercial with the vikings asking you what's in your wallet epitomizes the modern looter.

[JayB]

I thought America was broke too? The Europeans spent their money on vacations and cushy pensions, America on misguided foreign adventures.

 

the substance of JayB's rant is "but they're broker"

 

He is wrong about that too. First, China isn't bankrolling Europe and there are the same fears of insolvency about the US (essentially, the entire OECD is at risk). The perceived difference is also moot as shown by their slashing the public sector here too. Just consider what's going on in California: the major causes of the crisis are the same as Greece (revenue shortfall due to regressive tax policies/widespread tax evasion and deficits made a lot worse by the recession/depression) and the solutions are the same (cutting wages and public sector jobs), but especially no more taxes for the wealthy.

 

Tax revenue in California has been increasing in both absolute and per-capita terms for over 30 years, and the value of taxes paid relative to income has increased from 10.1 to 10.5% over that time.

 

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/443.html

 

The people that find themselves in the top 1% income range in California pay 45-50% of all income taxes collected there.

 

So. The effective tax rate is basically unchanged. The government has more money on an absolute and per-capita basis than it do 30 years ago. The state wasn't teetering on the edge of insolvency then. It is now. The problem isn't less money, its higher spending.

 

 

[JayB]

western entitlement state

 

OH YEAH, NEW LINGO!!! PUT THAT SHIT ON THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTES INTERWEBS, MAN!! YOU'LL BE A STAR! CALL SARAH PALIN AND NEWT, THIS ONE'S HOT OFF THE GRIDDLE!

 

Yeah, JayB, just what the fuck is THAT supposed to mean? I guess access to public health care makes one a pussy or something. Let's start another war.

 

It's all about priorities, not entitlement. That's so much Right Wing Bullshit.

 

Agreed. It's all about priorities. Expect massive cuts in the level of services that people on medicaid receive, the delivery of key services like education, law enforcement, etc, etc, etc before public sector employees agree to pay a cent more for their health care or agree to an ounce of pension reform.

 

This is happening here real-time at the state and local level, and the pattern is consistent across the entire Western world, with the exception of Ireland. There they've cut compensation, elsewhere they'll be forced to cut employment because the public employee unions would rather cull their own and impose needless hardship on the public than accept any reductions in pay and benefits.

 

If you are a public sector employee what - precisely - about funding your own retirement through a defined contribution plan, and financing the same share of your health care expenses as the average private sector employee is so awful that it warrants cutting or eliminating essential services for the public in order to stave it off. Why would you rather see your fellow employees laid off than accept these terms?

[JayB]

western entitlement state

 

OH YEAH, NEW LINGO!!! PUT THAT SHIT ON THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTES INTERWEBS, MAN!! YOU'LL BE A STAR! CALL SARAH PALIN AND NEWT, THIS ONE'S HOT OFF THE GRIDDLE!

 

Yeah, JayB, just what the fuck is THAT supposed to mean..

 

See below:

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,694263,00.html

[olyclimber]

dudebuddy, the government is too big to fail. we need to keep pumping the money in.

[j_b]

Tax revenue in California has been increasing in both absolute and per-capita terms for over 30 years, and the value of taxes paid relative to income has increased from 10.1 to 10.5% over that time.

 

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/443.html

 

The people that find themselves in the top 1% income range in California pay 45-50% of all income taxes collected there.

 

So. The effective tax rate is basically unchanged. The government has more money on an absolute and per-capita basis than it do 30 years ago. The state wasn't teetering on the edge of insolvency then. It is now. The problem isn't less money, its higher spending.

 

First, I certainly don't take anything coming out of the free-marketeering Tax Foundation at face value, so any analysis coming from them is suspect.

 

Second, the budget shortfall is mainly due to tax revenues being down more than 20% since the financial crash (data not shown at your link). Note that is down 21% for a national average. Nobody can absorb a 21% cut in revenue without incurring a large budget deficit.

 

Third, the proof is in the pudding so to speak: the state of Texas has cut all social spending for years yet it has essentially the same budget deficit as California. Texas has nothing more to cut except for the prison budget. Is that because of social spending too?

[j_b]

After perpetual war, privatization and deregulation of everything, they want to follow through with Hooverism:

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Typing from my new superfast win 7 starship now. Only had to chat with India once.

[j_b]

While checking your account information, I noticed that you do not yet have Comcast digital voice service. I would not want to miss this opportunity to share with you that this might be just the phone service you need.

 

It could effectively kill your fax machine if it isn't the latest model, so beware.

[JayB]

Tax revenue in California has been increasing in both absolute and per-capita terms for over 30 years, and the value of taxes paid relative to income has increased from 10.1 to 10.5% over that time.

 

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/443.html

 

The people that find themselves in the top 1% income range in California pay 45-50% of all income taxes collected there.

 

So. The effective tax rate is basically unchanged. The government has more money on an absolute and per-capita basis than it do 30 years ago. The state wasn't teetering on the edge of insolvency then. It is now. The problem isn't less money, its higher spending.

 

First, I certainly don't take anything coming out of the free-marketeering Tax Foundation at face value, so any analysis coming from them is suspect.

 

Second, the budget shortfall is mainly due to tax revenues being down more than 20% since the financial crash (data not shown at your link). Note that is down 21% for a national average. Nobody can absorb a 21% cut in revenue without incurring a large budget deficit.

 

Third, the proof is in the pudding so to speak: the state of Texas has cut all social spending for years yet it has essentially the same budget deficit as California. Texas has nothing more to cut except for the prison budget. Is that because of social spending too?

 

1. It's not an opinion piece. It's a data table. If you have better data, post it.

 

2. The table is current through 2010. You are confusing real tax revenues with projections. Revenues have increased throughout the financial crisis. Spending growth has outpaced revenue growth.

 

3. Texas has deficit for FY 2010 that amounts to 7% of the budget. They had no deficit for 2009. California has a long history of budget shortfalls, and this years stands at ~25%. This difference is reflected in the states' respective credit ratings.

They are not in the same boat.

[rob]

This thread DESPERATELY needs one of Dru's links posted.

[j_b]

IMO it's because he knows that neoliberals are winning and he is dancing on our collective grave (he has no problem with that kind of collectivism).

Wrong anaology. Greece is what lies at the bottom of the grave that the western entitlement state has dug for itself. There is no escape for Greece. I'm merely suggesting that we might want to stop digging before we join them there.

 

Greece with 40% of its GDP generated in the parallel/underground economy is a western entitlement state? I'd say that Greece is more like the neoliberal nations that have most of their economies in the parallel casino economy (you know, as in dubious swaps and bets not traded publicly))

[tvashtarkatena]

Fax machine? What is this, like, 1985? I'm driving a STARSHIP, man!

[tvashtarkatena]

This thing can download 1000 vaginas a second.

[G-spotter]

This thread DESPERATELY needs one of Dru's links posted.

 

try out your fucking Win7 on this.

 

http://www.wowomg.com/rofl

[Hugh Conway]

Curried sex.

 

Is damn good.

 

Difficult finding one who's up for it though. Viva the west!

[j_b]

1. It's not an opinion piece. It's a data table. If you have better data, post it.

 

2. The table is current through 2010. You are confusing real tax revenues with projections. Revenues have increased throughout the financial crisis. Spending growth has outpaced revenue growth.

 

3. Texas has deficit for FY 2010 that amounts to 7% of the budget. They had no deficit for 2009. California has a long history of budget shortfalls, and this years stands at ~25%. This difference is reflected in the states' respective credit ratings.

They are not in the same boat.

 

California’s Tax System

Corporate income taxes have declined over time as a share of General Fund revenues and as a share of corporate profits. If corporations had paid the same share of their profits in corporate taxes in 2006 as they did in 1981, corporate tax collections would have been $8.4 billion higher.– The yield of the state’s sales tax has declined over time, reflecting the shift in economic activity from goods to services and the rise of Internet and mail- order sales that escape taxation. If taxable purchases accounted for the same share of personal income in 2007-08 as they did in 1966-67, the state would have collected an additional $16.4 billion in sales tax revenues.

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2009/0902_Californias_Tax_System.pdf

 

Who pays taxes in California

Over the past two decades, the cost of funding state services has shifted from corporate to personal income taxpayers. Forecasters estimate that personal income tax receipts will provide 54.9 percent of General Fund revenues in 2008-09, up from 35.4 percent in 1980-81. Corporate tax receipts are expected to provide 11.6 percent of General Fund revenues in 2008-09, down from 14.6 percent in 1980-81. New, increased, and expanded corporate tax breaks and the 1996 corporate tax rate reduction are responsible for the decline in the share of state revenues provided by the corporate income tax. Tax cuts have limited growth in state revenues as a whole, with tax cuts enacted since 1993 reducing 2007-08 General Fund revenues by an estimated $12 billion.

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2008/0804_pp_taxes.pdf

 

 

All Gain, No Pain: California’s “No Tax” Corporations

All California corporations are required to pay at least an annual minimum franchise tax of $800 for the privilege of doing business in the state.1 Profitable corporations pay income taxes at a rate of 8.84 percent. However, many profitable corporations – including some very large ones – are able to avoid paying corporate income taxes by using deductions, credits, and other preferential tax treatment. In fact, in 2001, 72.8 percent (378,344) of the corporations doing business in the state paid just the $800 minimum franchise tax. Even more startling, over half (52.0 percent, 153,441) of the state’s profitable corporations paid no more than the $800 minimum franchise tax, including 46 corporations with over $1 billion in 2001 receipts.

 

Many Corporations Pay No Federal Income Taxes

A recent study by the US General Accounting Office found that 73.3 percent of foreign controlled and 63.0 percent of US-controlled corporations paid no federal income taxes in 2000.4 These “no federal tax” corporations included 37.5 percent of foreign-controlled and 45.3 percent of US-controlled large corporations. The percentage of “no tax” foreign-controlled corporations has increased slightly in recent years, rising from 67.6 percent in 1996 to 71.3 percent in 2000, while the percentage of “no tax” US-controlled corporations has remained relatively steady, increasing from 60.3 percent in 1996 to 61.3 percent in 2000.5

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2004/0409allgain.pdf

 

As for Texas, it is expected to have a $20 billion deficit next year (20% of the budget), which is California's deficit this year. This despite the fact that California gets 78cents back for every dollar sent to the feds, whereas Texas gets 94cents back which amounts to several more 10's billion dollar returning to Texas.

 

[Hugh Conway]

JayB wants to live in an Eastern shitbag state instead of a "Western Entitlement State".

 

Perhaps China? Creditor, Manufacturer, loves pseudo freemarketism, fulfills authoritarian impulses.....