Bad Anchor Hardware

[specialed]

"Yeah, like that freakin 2 or 3mm ratty ass piece of cord on the fixed rurp on Touchstone, all frayed and bleached, I really thought it'd pop (I wasn't rapping off it) but it hung in there and is still there as far as I know."

That 1mm natty shoelace was there last I was in Zion. Sketchy. Reminds me of the "Fred Becky Specials" you find all over rock routes in the Cascades, all sorts of archaic funky homemade crap. They Look like Fred Becky put them in on the first ascent in like 1925 and shit.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: specialed ]

[mattp]

Good point, Mitch. I guess it is just a psychological thing -- they don't want to die thinking they could have done something more.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Everyone should continue to rap more slings around those trees I like steeling them for the mountain rappels.

Prusik Peak has about 90 at each rappell

[Kathy]

Hi guys!

I sometimes worry about those new fangled Fixe anchors, and their ilk. Most manufacturers recommend a D/d ratio of 10:1. This means that the center to center spacing of bolts should be ten times their diameter. For a 3/8" bolt the centers should be 2 3/4" apart. Does a Fixe anchor conform to this? I can't find any of my concrete anchor catalogs, so I may have some of the ratios messed up. Depth of emplacement should also play a factor. These ratios are based on a cone of failure analagous to the cone of percussion.

MattPAbout the removal and replacement of the nut on a wedge anchor weakening the origal placement by a factor of 50%. Bullshit, no thruth to it. Wrong

I sure know alot lot of shit for a girl.C

[allthumbs]

Naw Kathy, you just spew a lot of shit for the hosehound you are. I told you once and I'll tell you again, you just bring your funbags on over to see old Trask for proper bolt emplacement. I know all the French techniques, and my nuts never back out.

[Charlie]

Trask- shut up! You sexually harass every female on this board. You don't even climb so what the hell are you doing on here anyway? I'm all for spraying- but you're a dick.

[mattp]

Kathy - I'm not quite sure I understood your post. Are you saying that two 3/8" bolts should be placed 2 3/4" apart, or no less than 2 3/4" apart, or what? I have never seen anyone place them that close, and I have never seen any anchor setup, whether made by Fixe or anybody else, that would call for that.

There has been a great deal of discussion over the years about the orientation of the bolts, and a lateral orientation has been criticized because it leads to "the American death triangle." If a station is to be set for slings, I think the current recommendation is to set it up with the bolts about 10" apart, with a nearly vertical orientation but maybe 3" lateral offset between the two. Is this the 2 3/4" that you refer to?

I believe the Fixe ring anchors, or the Metolious rap hangers, or similar devices without chains, or stations consisting of two independent chains, are all supposed to have the bolts installed on the same level, something like 8 to10" apart.

As to the weakening of the nuts by torquing/retorquing them, I am fully prepared to believe that the danger may be less than what I suggested. It does make some sense to me, however, that the most stressful time in the life of a nut is the moment it is tightened, though in my experience there is greater danger of breaking the bolt - if you crank too tightly you can easily break a brand new bolt right off. Do you have any information about testing of these ideas? -Matt

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by Charlie:

Trask- shut up! You sexually harass every female on this board. You don't even climb so what the hell are you doing on here anyway? I'm all for spraying- but you're a dick.

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werd!

[Kathy]

Matt

The D/d ratio of 10:1, resulting in a spacing of 2 3/4" is a minimum. I just can't remember the spacing on a Fixe anchor, but it seems that it would have to be more. This ratio is a well accepted standard in concrete anchors the world over, from good old Rawl USA to Euro Hilti. I am sure Fixe was aware of this standard. Most fastener stores will give you a Rawl or Hilti catalog, and they have all sorts of techical information in the back.

I am not an engineer, but I know alot about fasteners. Concrete anchors are made to have the nut removed several times, and the appliance replaced. The stress they are under is constant, and in fact they are made to attach machinary such as fans, which due to their vibrations are much more stressfull.

I don't worry about the American triangle. In a belay system, one can normallly equalize, thence negate, the increased moments due to leverage. In a rap, the increased leverage really shouldn't matter. If you are worried about increasing the force on a bolt from say 100# to 200# ( 200lb load divided by two bolts, versus 200lb load doubled by leverage divided by two bolts) then the anchors are so far outside of their safety factor something is seriously wrong.

Chain padded up with washers so someone could avoid buying hangers are stupid.

C

[mattp]

Chain padded up with washers so someone could avoid buying hangers are stupid.

It is largely a matter of expense. Bolt hangers cost real money, whereas washers cost pennies. And regardless of cost, some people just want to build their own anchors rather than buy something from an outfit they perceive as a commercially motivated gear manufacturer that sponsors the ruination of our sporst. But you are right: washers piled up to pad a piece of chain suck. If you are going to add hardware to the rock, you should take the time and spend the money to do it in a fashion that others will recognize as safe and well done.

Having said that, I should add that when challenged on this point, a certain local climber who has installed a lot of those stacks of washers made an effort to test them, and although he did so in a non-standard manner, I believe the results were encouraging.

[Dru]

In Canada, those "chain on a bolt with no hangar" things are known as "Barley anchors" because the only one who places them is cheap bastard Robin Barley - that is, when he's not skipping a bolt placement in favor of a 'drilled V-thread' (chipped nut placement) that you supposedly can place a #4 Wild Country Rock in.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Dru ]

[Peter_Puget]

I believe that the distance Kathy is refering to is a minimun distance. If the bolts are closer than this there is the potential for anchor failure at an load for less than if the bolts were placed beyond this distance. Of course many variables come into play. Are bolts ever placed this close? Not often but I have seen it. I am not sure how this issue relates only to Fixes bolts tho.

"Nonstandard" testing while possibly producing encouraging results is nothing I would want used as a basis for setting up a long term anchor. The additional cost of doing it right is so small that it boggles my mind that anyone would do otherwise.

PP

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

In Canada, those "chain on a bolt with no hangar" things are known as "Barley anchors" because the only one who places them is cheap bastard Robin Barley - that is, when he's not skipping a bolt placement in favor of a 'drilled V-thread' (chipped nut placement) that you supposedly can place a #4 Wild Country Rock in.

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Weird man. Chipping nut placements? That's about the most contradictory thing I've heard. Maybe the sons of canada can all pitch in and buy the guy some hardware. "Here you cheap f$#&*, quit molesting the rock and leaving shit gear everywhere, use these" Might be the only way to solve the problem, or smash him in the head with a chisel...that'd probably work too.

[allthumbs]

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: trask ]

[allthumbs]

quote:

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Originally posted by trask:

heh dumb ass, you tell me. Yeah, Kathy (aka as XXXXXX I won't mention names) is a real lady. hehehe...

Kathy Rope Lead Member # 1424 posted 01-31-2002 07:41 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------At the pub Club I will show my ample rack to Fred. Maybe I will get to see some of his ancient but still serviceable ironmongrey. I haven't seen Fred since '87, atop the Sisters. We did the Dog Route as a way to stay in shape back then.

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[Charlie]

I've just been informed (via PM) by Trask That I am an asshole- Wow, all of my ex girlfriends were right! I can now throw away all of my self-help books- I've just "discovered" myself.

[allthumbs]

what's up? ya lookin' for the sympathy vote? hehehe

[allison]

Here's the deal with quicklinks: Far as I know there aren't any around that are rated...which basically means there's no guarantee they will hold you. Now it doesn't take so much to hold a 150# climber on a rap with minimal shock load potential, but I will say that in my work we do a lot of overhead rigging where QLs would be mighty convenient (backstage) and we never use them for hanging scenery, and we never, ever, ever use them if we are flying people.

Having said all of that they are cheaper than anything else I'd risk my life on. I do use them but only to rap.

I didn't know MEC had them super-cheap, but if that's not convenient I'm inclined to go to a real hardware store for my QLs (can't remember where I bought them last but it sure as hell wasn't Home Despot) like maybe Stoneway or Tacoma Screw. You're probably not gong to pay more, and it's highly likely you'll get a better quality unrated piece of crap there than at the Despot.

[max]

quote:

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Originally posted by allison:

... we never use them for hanging scenery, and we never, ever, ever use them if ...

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Is never, ever, ever any less often than never?

[allison]

Well, yeah, silly, what's your point?

[jkrueger]

I hesitate to go out and get anything that I will be trusting my life to at a hardware store. However, it seems that unrated pieces of crap from the hardware store are acceptable components of a lowering station...

Petzl makes a P15 Oval Quicklink that is rated, but the cost is outrageous and they're hard to find.

MEC sells the Fixe 8mm Maillon for cheap. However, the price for getting them over the border into the US is insane. Doesn't anyone in the US carry these?

That gives me the following options:

• Search like crazy and pay the Petzl premium
• Buy a lifetime supply from MEC to offset border crossing costs
• Walk to Home Depot with $5, leave with change and 2 unrated pieces of crap

So, at what point does cheap and convenient become potentially life threatening?

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: jkrueger ]

[Peter_Puget]

Exactly what does "rated" mean?

[erik]

krueger

go to a specialty fastner store and pick up some quick links and some chain....they should be stainless and relativly cheap....figure this if contruction workers are usin this stuff to lift/haul or whatever stuff then a scrawny climbers shouldnt be an issue......

i was re-reading your questions and i think if you put out exaclty what you are asking then a better answer could come about...

are you setting up a new anchor drilling holes and placing bolts and hangers??

are you replacing crappy webbing and rings??

[jkrueger]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Exactly what does "rated" mean?

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The Petzl meets CE EN 12275 type Q standards, so in my book that counts as rated. Hardware that comes from a bin in a hardware store without stated minimum performance guarantees gets chalked up in my unrated category.

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by jkrueger:

Hardware that comes from a bin in a hardware store without stated minimum performance guarantees gets chalked up in my unrated category.

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Which is probably why the cheap asses are using chain...it is rated (although what sort of testing they use is not standardized as far as I know).