ryanb Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 What Twight does at Gym Jones is not crossfit. It may have been at one point but he has realized the limitations of the crossfit approach and adapted his program to include some distinctly not crossfit activities: from the cs point of view: http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/08/inside-gym-jones.tpl (pdf link on right) from the twight point of view: http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44 Twight is a former elite alpine/ice climber dedicating himself to developing effective training techniques for similar, crossfit is a bunch of gym rats trying to sell 45 minutes of weighted aerobics as key to a hard core life style. Mountain Athlete is another deal altogether but I believe it is run by a non climber and gets a lot wrong as such. From what little I've seen of it ( http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/wfeature-mountain-athlete-training ) it seems like they use a cross between their own version of 80's style system wall training and crossfit style stuff. The thing is, they get the climbing stuff pretty wrong in terms of how really good climbers train on system walls...in the video's i've seen their system wall is not steep enough to provide much core benefit and their using ice tools which are just plain easy to hold on to and hugh foot holds. System wall training is awesome (look at the hubers) but you will get more bang for your training time if you do it "right". Reading up on the modern climbing specific training techniques employed by people who are actually good climbers. Sonnie Trotter, Dave Macleod, the Beastmaker Crew and Will Gadd all of whom write excellent blogs with lots of training tips. I think the biggest thing your average free climber can take from that whole crew is motivation though. "Take what works and train like you fucking mean it." For me this means doing workouts where I alternate hang board sets and lock offs with push ups, yoga, core stuff and opposition with timed recovery (i count breaths cause i dislike stop watches) and a gym jones style work ethic after gym sessions or when I can't get to the gym/ real rock. I doubt this is the best way to train and i'm always eager to figure out ways to improve on my routine but it seems to what I do now is definitely helping me get up more and more stuff at index and WA pass and I just don't see people who stick to crossfit making similar gains.
genepires Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) how could any crossfitter gain weight when they are puking all the time? (not a serious question, so please, no answer or defense is required. But if you feel like it.......) While the crossfit may not be a asset to elite climbers, I would have to say that regular exercise is good for 99% of americans and climbers alike. And crossfit seems like a good scheduled way to get your ass beat up and get in shape. Which has got to help with climbing in general, minus the puking. Edited December 24, 2009 by genepires
fern Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 I dunno how hard she climbs but Mary Conover is an octogenarian badass grandma and she has this to say about pukulating after exercise: http://www.crossfitsantacruz.com/crossfit_santa_cruz/exercise-induced-nausea-and-vomiting.html
layton Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Is it an excellent foundational program that when used as a part of your periodization programming will enhance your sport specific performance? Yes. btw, just so you know, i have nothing against crossfit per se, and i have nothing against you per se, i just have, in general, a problem with anyone who makes claims about how their program will help everyone with whatever it is they do (especially when the proclaimant advertises said high-priced services, and is a gumby at the discipline they claim their "program" will help). layton falls into this camp just a little bit, when he dispenses "how-to" RULES as to how one should train for disciplines in which he is not at an elite level. taping fingers for campusing? heavy weight-training for sport climbing? that kind of "rule-making" by amateurs just bugs the heck out of me. shit, elite climbers who coach (except neil gresham, gumby!) don't seem to have half the conceit that so many amateur gumbies have. I wouldn't rag on people for being conceited. The amount of venomous spray you've dished out on this forum is unbelievable. You've obviously found something that works for you, and are hypocritically spewing not only about how other viewpoints are wrong, but insult them by calling them armatures. I really wonder why you and others on this site care so much what other people do. Working yourself up into a tizzy over principles of training is insane, especially since exercise science has shown little proof in any form of human performance.
Kimmo Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 I wouldn't rag on people for being conceited. The amount of venomous spray you've dished out on this forum is unbelievable. You've obviously found something that works for you, and are hypocritically spewing not only about how other viewpoints are wrong, but insult them by calling them armatures. I really wonder why you and others on this site care so much what other people do. Working yourself up into a tizzy over principles of training is insane, especially since exercise science has shown little proof in any form of human performance. i call a person who functions in a particular discipline at a non-advanced level an "amateur". it is not a denigration per se, just an apt description of that particular person's level of performance. and when this person, who evidently carries not enough personal experience and expertise to attain a more advanced level of attainment, begins to lecture others on what they should do in order to improve at that particular discipline, it seems to me, for what should be obvious reasons, that they should have the humbleness to defer to those that do indeed have the expertise and experience. is this difficult to understand? and really, you can say whatever you want about whatever you want hah, but there are other ways of dealing with others disagreeing with you besides getting offended: perhaps actually debate them on the merits of your position? oh, maybe you don't have a defensible position; my bad. in that case, you learn. you learn what works, you study, you climb, you make yourself a guinea pig, and once you figure it out, THEN start lecturing people (or, allow people to be part of your improvement process). but once you start lecturing people without the expertise and attainments to back up your position, you'll simply be offended over and over again, cuz you'll get called out. i think all i've ever talked about here is what's worked for me, what makes sense to me, and what DOESN'T make sense to me. sorry if what you say doesn't make sense to me; it's not so much that i'm trying to offend you, it's just that i think you might be wrong for reasons that i will state. maybe respond, instead of ignoring my questions? or are you afraid you'll look ignorant cuz now you've published a book and you're supposed to know the answers? and if it seems i work myself into a tizzy over this shite, maybe it's cuz i'm actually passionate about it. maybe try getting passionate about what you write books about. and, i've never ever called anyone here an "armature", and your last sentence makes no sense what-so-ever. what so ever. whatsoever. damn, all three choices look funny.
layton Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 thanks for providing an example to clarify my point (end of discussion for me, we've seen how many pages of spray you're willing to dish out on previous threads)
John Frieh Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 from the cs point of view: http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/08/inside-gym-jones.tpl (pdf link on right) I was at that very seminar and I can assure half of that article is bullshit at best. I wouldnt believe a word of it. Russell (the author) demonstrated himself to be nothing more than a CFHQ puppet with the recent Robb Wolf fiasco. If people are really truly interested in what is Gym Jones send me a PM: I visit a few times a year. Twight is a former elite alpine/ice climber dedicating himself to developing effective training techniques for similar, crossfit is a bunch of gym rats trying to sell 45 minutes of weighted aerobics as key to a hard core life style. Something to keep in mind is Gym Jones is much more than Twight. The Gym Jones staff has a number of elite athletes in their respective field. Mountain Athlete is another deal altogether but I believe it is run by a non climber and gets a lot wrong as such. From what little I've seen of it ( http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/wfeature-mountain-athlete-training ) it seems like they use a cross between their own version of 80's style system wall training and crossfit style stuff. Yes if you are a boulder/sport climber Mtn Athlete wont really help you that much. I've done 3 separate seminars with Rob Shaul (Mtn Athlete) over the past 2 years and I think he has some great ideas/insight into ways to mix your foundational training with your sport specific training. I do disagree with him on some of his programming but I think that goes along with the "take what works for you and go hard" you guys keep repeating. Though Rob is a non climber his gym population is one of the best out there... Exum and Teton Mtneering guides. Additionally he has worked with some badass alpinists: Gilmore, Wilkinson, etc etc. With respect to everyone's question of when did Litz start he started BEFORE he went on a sending spree at ten sleep. Details here To those of you wondering about weight gain: weight gain is a function of the rep scheme you are doing in your lifting and diet. Litz will not gain weight as Gym Jones is smart enough to design his programming so that he wont gain weight. I have LOST WEIGHT since starting the programming Gym Jones gave me. I hope this clears up some misconceptions about Gym Jones and Mtn Athlete.
Kimmo Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 huh, interesting inre litz. looks like he started a year ago, and did a 6 mo program? curious about litz's body type...i'd guess from the photo he's 5'8" and 135 lbs? is there a gym jones in seattle area, with people of expertise in line with litz's program? and what are the costs?
Kimmo Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 (end of discussion for me, we've seen how many pages of spray you're willing to dish out on previous threads) mebbe i should just write a book! merry christmas btw, may all your wishes come true (unless you are wishing for my deth or something).
genepires Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 I think there is only one gym jones gym. Mtn athlete has two gyms. (boulder and jackson) I don't think seattle has a concentrated enough population for either of them. How many hardman live within reasonable driving to one of their gyms to make it work? Too many latte drinking slobs around here.
Kimmo Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 [ You've obviously found something that works for you, and are hypocritically spewing not only about how other viewpoints are wrong, but insult them by calling them armatures. furthermore(!): i'm not sure what you are going on about regarding hypocritical spewing. do you really think i am "spewing" blanket dismissals of all other view-points? of course not! i've mentioned books i have liked (parts of macleod's latest, goddard's, certainly ilgner's warrior's way), and i've questioned certain view-points. it seems perhaps you don't like to be questioned? hence no discussion of your own book here, only solicitations for accolades? but, i do want to add that the "amateur" tag applies to myself as well. i hardly consider it an insult, just an apt description of my current abilities. and not only does my current climbing standard (13c or so) define me as an amateur (since elite level is closer to 14c and v13 or 14), so does the fact that i don't get paid to climb. interesting thought: i heard someone say that the difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional simply loves what they do more.
rocky_joe Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) you're an asshole. you've been THE hypocrit of every thread; the last couple posts make that clear. If anyone on this forum doesn't like being questioned it is you. Every other poster in this thread has offered level headed responses to your rubbish and you get more and more defensive every time; insulting everything from their climbing ability (which is all presumption) to their person. you have issued so many blanket rejections of what people say based on "what works for you" without ever giving pause to the thought that GymJones/MtnAthlete/Crossfit might work wonderfully for them. Get off your high horse, cuz no one here gives a goddam how hard some sporto bitch sends when the majority of training discussions here are centered on an approach for alpinism. Go troll the dregs at pimpinandcrimpin or 8a, I'm sure a few other gym rats will eat up your every word. furthermore(!): i'm not sure what you are going on about regarding hypocritical spewing. do you really think i am "spewing" blanket dismissals of all other view-points? of course not! i've mentioned books i have liked (parts of macleod's latest, goddard's, certainly ilgner's warrior's way), and i've questioned certain view-points. it seems perhaps you don't like to be questioned? hence no discussion of your own book here, only solicitations for accolades? but, i do want to add that the "amateur" tag applies to myself as well. i hardly consider it an insult, just an apt description of my current abilities. and not only does my current climbing standard (13c or so) define me as an amateur (since elite level is closer to 14c and v13 or 14), so does the fact that i don't get paid to climb. interesting thought: i heard someone say that the difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional simply loves what they do more. Read that post. If you can't see how insulting this post is to all of us "amateur" climbers, then you haven't even the most base level of intelligence. Don't think for a second that by "labeling" yourself amateur that you've covered your ass for continually degrading the accomplishments of several of the climbers here. Sure we're not paid to climb, but really only about 50 of them get paid in anything more than free gear. Saying that professional climbers love it more is absolute fucking bullshit. how about those of us who will simply never send 14d or won't have the time to organize a 2 month patagonian expedition for a new line on Fitzroy because we have other lives: work, family, school, other passions. Seriously man, suck my balls. Edited December 26, 2009 by rocky_joe
Kimmo Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 hehe, speaking of "defensive"! update: december 26th, 2009, 2:57 pm. do your tendons know what time it is?
rocky_joe Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Actually I think that was offensive. Never defended myself.
Kimmo Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 you're an asshole. you've been THE hypocrit of every thread; the last couple posts make that clear. please explain how i am a hypocrite. If anyone on this forum doesn't like being questioned it is you. really? i love to be questioned. what is your question please? Every other poster in this thread has offered level headed responses to your rubbish and you get more and more defensive every time; insulting everything from their climbing ability (which is all presumption) to their person. who did i insult, and who's climbing? oh yes, yours, when you went on like an experienced expert. you have issued so many blanket rejections of what people say based on "what works for you" without ever giving pause to the thought that GymJones/MtnAthlete/Crossfit might work wonderfully for them. au contraire. i believe i have said on more than one occasion that those disciplines might work wonderfully for people. i even expressed interest in gym jones in seattle, but alas, nothing available. Get off your high horse, cuz no one here gives a goddam how hard some sporto bitch sends when the majority of training discussions here are centered on an approach for alpinism. . no way dude, at least one person is interested in this shite. if you include me, that is. you seem pretty interested, since you keep replying, even though you are busy keeping tabs on your tendon development dates. Read that post. If you can't see how insulting this post is to all of us "amateur" climbers, then you haven't even the most base level of intelligence. i have always detested base levels of intelligence, but i still fail to see how the above is so terrifically offensive.... perhaps you are simply defensive? Don't think for a second that by "labeling" yourself amateur that you've covered your ass for continually degrading the accomplishments of several of the climbers here. Sure we're not paid to climb, but really only about 50 of them get paid in anything more than free gear. Saying that professional climbers love it more is absolute fucking bullshit. how about those of us who will simply never send 14d or won't have the time to organize a 2 month patagonian expedition for a new line on Fitzroy because we have other lives: work, family, school, other passions. Seriously man, suck my balls. please list the "several" climbers who i have denigrated. and the love thing: you notice how you brought up all these "obligations" of yours? excuses, dude. and a perfect example of what the quote seemed to indicate: for true love, you will sacrifice. how many will? certainly not rocky joe with the time stamped tendons. no, i kid you. of course people have competing interests in their lives. nothing wrong with that, but i can't quite figure out why you're getting so worked up about it.... and about sucking your balls? tact, sir. at least wait to proposition me until the bathrooms at stone gardens.
eldiente Posted December 27, 2009 Posted December 27, 2009 Skipping the last oh 10 posts because I'm too lazy and it sounds like nonsense... Most of Xfit is interval training with a different name. Athletes and fat folks alike have been doing these types of workouts for just about ever. I recall doing many of these same workouts that now have girl names when I wrestled in junior high. Simple and hard. Now for some reason these workouts are revolutionary, controversial and require that you pay $$$ to a coach to show you how to do them. Very odd. Just about any athlete can benefit from interval training, however it is important to do the training targeted to your sport. Unfortunately, many of the Xfit WODs have no benefit for climbers and in fact will make you a worse climber. EX: A 1.5x bodyweight bench press requires massive pushing muscles that you'll have to drag up the mountain but won't be of any value to you.
fern Posted December 27, 2009 Posted December 27, 2009 This thread is derailed. Probably I should have kept a better eye on it, but I didn't. So now I am going to lock it.
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