Nomics

[cory.nyc]

Does anyone know of a way to modify the nomics to throw some sort of micro hammer or micro adze on? I climb mostly on the east coast and sometimes pitons are the way to go so just curious.

[Maxtrax]

I believe Dane welded a hammer onto the back of a Nomic pick. Also there is this: http://www.ascent-design.com/projects/other_ice_hammers.html

As soon as I have time to take the safety course to get access to the machine shop at UW (and find a Quark hammer for < $50) I'm planning to do that to one of my tools.

[John Frieh]

Two easy steps!

 

1. Sell nomics

2. Buy *new* fusions

 

[montypiton]

one even easier step:

 

1. carry an alpine hammer third tool - any hammerhead you cobble onto a nomic is gonna be unsatisfying, at best, and more likely, only marginally usable... for what its worth, I've witnessed last resort peg placements made just using the stock backside of the Nomic head. Adding a mirohammer is likely to be little more than a cosmetic improvement.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

John, have you used the new Fusions on ice? How are they?

[mwalker]

People were talking about the fusions in Chamonix; I too am curious about how they compare to the nomics.

[Dane]

In that respect I wouldn't suspect the new Fusion to be much better than the Nomic with either version of hammer head (i have both).

 

Monty is right, carry a third tool and do it right. That is said having pounded/cleaned a peg or two with a Nomic as it comes from the factory, sans hammer. A alpine hammer made to pound pegs with will be faster, easier and offer more reliable pegs...even better pegs as the placement position gets more desperate. My take on it anyway.

 

Hammer isn't the answer on that tool (Nomics) as the balance is off enough you'll notice and more importantly the radical curve of the shaft makes any useful hammer less than optimum. Big attribute to the Nomic is it's light weight and exceptional balance.

 

Now having a useful spike and attachment point all in one, on the end of a tool.......and a mini hammer (that is sorta useful) without trashing the balance, that is something worth talking about

[pdk]

Why limit yourself to the fusions or nomics? The BD Cobras are fantastic for everything but pure m-climbing. and they can easily be outfitted with a full size hammer (that's how I roll). This eliminates the need to carry a third tool altogether....

[cory.nyc]

thanks for all the input, still getting back into ice, been up pinnacle x2 so far (east coast, mt.washington for you west coasters) and I have 1 nomic i got at a garage sale in the dacks for 50 bux!!!! but still not happy with my older pulsar...Might trade em in for the new fusions.

 

I like how the newer BD tools have picks on the bottom now.

[dan_e]

I wonder if anyone that is modifying Nomics has actually talked to the engineers at Petzl, I would safely assume they haven't. A modern ice tool like the Nomic is vastly different than the tools the old schoolers used. The increased stress from hammering could cause disastrous results. One possible problem might be weakening the connection that joins the head to the shaft. Either way, there is no way I would use the Nomics to pound pins, with or without a hammer.

 

Your safest bet, like others have suggested would be to get a more suitable tool like the Cobras or possibly the new Fusions. I modified an old X-15 hammer for pounding pins, it's a bit more weight, however it will put in a pin way faster than any modern ice tool. I still plan to get the Cobras, but they're not cheap so it might be a while.

[Dane]

"..wonder if anyone that is modifying Nomics has actually talked to the engineers at Petzl, I would safely assume they haven't."

 

dan_e you know what they say about assuming anything.

 

You don't need to be a mechnical engineer to take a look at the heads of a Quark and a Nomic and see that the picks aren't supported by the handle. They are only supported by the steel bolts and the aluminum head.

 

If you did happen to have a engineering degree you know that is what might be considered a "fatal flaw". Funny how the tools work just fine even with that "flaw". There is a reason Nomic picks work on a Quark. Nomic is really just a Quark head cut in half.

 

Hammer works fine on a Nomic except for the fact that it changes the balance of the Nomic enough to be annoying some what on pure ice. Pounding on the back of a Nomic pick isn't going to hurt anything unless you miss That damage is likely only going to be cosmetic in the short term. But the pick's rear spline alone works well enough when required. Better yet a mini hammer machined in if that is the kind of climbing you are doing and the tool you require.

 

A hammer head, even a mini version hammer head on a Nomic isn't the best pin hammer. Even the full size hammer on a Quark isn't what I'd take on a big wall to pound pins. Neither will be durable enough for long term use pounding pins. Stainless heads and hammers (mini or full size) like BD is using is a better idea imo for a base material. And obviously much more durable than an aluminum head, steel hammer.

 

Durability is not the only goal we are looking for in an ice tool...balance is important as well. Balance is a combination of materials and design. The most obvious inprovements in ice tools in the last 20 years is better balance, less weight and more durability.

 

A heavy, wooden handled piton hammer will always do a better job pounding pins.

 

"A modern ice tool like the Nomic is vastly different than the tools the old schoolers used."

 

Ya, I did notice they weren't hickory let alone bamboo....

But different?...Not much really between a Peck Terrodactyl and a Petzl Nomic. I have used damn near every technical ice tool in production over the last 35 years. I own Quarks, Nomics, the newest Cobra and a pair of 2010 Fusions and talk with industry insiders at Petzl and BD on occasion. Email and the phone are wonderful tools. And I am not the only one here to do so. The big differences these days is a head made of cast stainless (BD) or one of cast aluminum (Petzl).

Everyone but BD is using an aluminum shaft.

 

FWIW current production ice tools require fewer mods today than in the past....but not like you are risking much if you make reasonable mods with some care. There are Petzl sponsored climbers with factory modified tools that have gone way past just adding hammers to a Nomic.

 

My take is we are pretty safe with the tools we are using

chopped/broken or not. Hey, climbing can be dangerious YMMV of course.

 

Flow Reversal '09

 

Slipstream '80

 

I find it hilarious when peeps start recommending ice tools they don't own or have never used. Classic example...a Nomic was never intended for the terrain a Cobra was to be used on. Better comparison is a Fusion/Nomic and a Quark/Cobra. Wrong tool on the wrong terrain can be serious if not dangerious no matter your skill level. Given the right skill set and right terrain some of the most modern tool's advantages far outweight their lack of more obvious features. Not every pilot can, wants or needs to fly an F16. Piper Cub is a good plane as well that will do things a F16 can't.

 

Each new generation of tools builds on the last. How we (climbers) decide they need to be modified between production runs, at least in a small way, gives the manufactures a heads up om what other features we'd like to see in the future. Seems to be a decent relationship that has only gotten better over the last 25 years.

 

Think not?

 

Here is a list I made up last March/April '09 and posted 1st of May.

 

"My "mission statement" for a better tool design and the current leader in design imo.

 

lightest possible weight and excellence balance (Nomic)

reliable picks (Petzel/Grivel, hot forged)

easy umbilical attachment (Black Diamond)

spike and top grip specifically for plunging (1/2 to BD)

big clearence on the shaft (everyone)

second hold mid shaft for matching (1/2 BD Cobra)

range of 3 distinct picks for mixed, alpine, water ice (no one)

removeable micro and macro adze and hammer (BD)

shaft cover, is slick, insulates & sticky top to bottom (no one)

Tool head, shaft, picks and grip that are all ergonomic (no one)"

 

Take a look at that list and see how many details have now been answered by the newest BD Fusion? Obviously that wasn't just my list.

 

 

more here:

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/921963/gonew/1/BD_s_newest_Fusion_winter_09_1#UNREAD

 

 

 

[dan_e]

to the other "dane":

 

My post was designed to help those who are thinking of modifying Nomics (or any tool) without the knowledge and experience that's required to carry out this type of modification. And to also let them know that such a modification can result in serious consequences. It would be foolish to suggest that such a modification does not involve any risk.

 

I've modified lots of gear over the years, however I've never and will never lead anyone to believe that it's necessarily a good idea (as in there is risk). I think we all know climbing is risky, most would not (I hope) debate that fact.

[Dane]

Worthy goal (the warning) but helps to have a background and education in what really is a "foolish modification" and what the Petzl crew is already doing or has done and found acceptable.

 

Done correctly a hammer head on a Nomic is one of those "acceptable" modifications. But not the only or the last.

 

 

[montypiton]

Dane -

 

A wish list similar to the one you've posted was what led me to jump on the DMM Rebel three seasons ago (the timing was dictated by the fact that Bentgate.com was discontinuing them, so I got a helluva price deal...) I find this tool meets every criterion on your list, except: range of picks - DMM only offers one, but it has proven more than versatile enough for my purposes; micro-hammer/adze - I don't buy/carry adzes anymore, and the stock hammer is barely usable as it is, wouldn't want it any less conspicuous; shaft is only covered/insulated in the grip area, which is hands down the best engineered grip I've tried (including nomics, quarks, vipers/cobras). Last June I managed to break one of my Rebels during a 1000'(vertical measurement) ride in a lightning-triggered avalanche. When I contacted DMM, they offered to repair/replace the tool at NO CHARGE if I would send it to them. I'm hungrily awaiting the replacement, having finally shipped the broken one in September, after spending the summer in hospital. Compare that to BD's inability to even SELL me a leg-loop assembly for my BD harness, whose leg-loops were sliced off of my cracked pelvis when I was delivered to the emergency room...

 

but I digress - I've never been one to refrain from modifying gear if I can make it work better - but when I demo'd the Rebel, I realized that I'd finally found something I had no inclination to modify - so I bought 'em!

[wdietsch]

..... BD's inability (unwillingness) to even SELL me a leg-loop assembly for my BD harness, whose leg-loops were sliced off of my cracked pelvis when I was delivered to the emergency room...

 

different animal .. given the history in the birth of the BD brand name, I can't blame 'em

[Dane]

Hey Monty...you just need to get in touch with the right people at BD. Most generious company I know of in the industry, owned by...you guested it, climbers. PM on the way to you.

 

Rebel sounds like a great tool. Love the technology that went into it and the after market support. Hard to beat!

 

While I may be wrong not convinced it climbs as well as a Nomic on hard terrain. I'll put up with a lot of silly bs for that kind of performance.

 

FWIW a Nomic is not the tool I would choose or suggest for grade 3 water ice...it will work but there are better tools for that angle. Nomic is not a beginners tool and not likely the only tool you'll want if you are going to own only one.

 

Rebel, Viper, Quark, and Cobra are. Simond and Grivel also make comparable models that will work as all around technical climbing. None of these are tools I'd want on the vast majority of Rainier routes.

[montypiton]

Point of clarification: At first contact, BD initially simply said "no, not available." I was a bit surprised by that terse response, which I received over the phone at my local BD dealer. Not to give up so easily, I followed up with an email contact, and we did eventually reach a settlement which they specifically asked me not to disclose. This contrasts with my experience in contacting DMM to ask, if it was possible, for a reasonable price, to fix my damaged Rebel. DMM's response was to OFFER to fix the tool at no charge, if I would ship it to them on my own dime. In fairness, the BD rep did later explain that the reason they didn't have leg-loop assemblies available is that the harnesses are manufactured and packaged overseas, so the BD USA staff never even sees the belt & leg-loop assemblies separately. He further explained that even if the leg-loop assembly was available separately, they would have to price it at nearly the price of a whole harness anyway. Long story short, we did (with a bit of nudge on my part) eventually reach a settlement which I am not at liberty to share with ya.

 

And Dane, I can't argue with the pure climbing performance of the Nomics. Where they came up short for me were 1. no hammerhead (not necessarily a deal killer) 2. no spike -pretty close to a deal killer because I am at heart more of an alpinist than ice/mixed cragger 3. My ham-hock hands are so damn big, I couldn't adjust the grip big enough for honest COMFORT; yeah, I could use certain grip positions & make 'em work, but this meant I couldn't really make use of the full range of the tool. The grip size was the main deal-killer for me, simply reinforced by the other issues. But for a person with normal human-sized hands, who places less importance on the spike and/or hammerhead, it is the Lamborghini of ice-tools.

[jhattan]

Any idea what's going on with this tool? It looks like a Nomic with a Quark head. Is that a mod or a prototype? The picture is from the latest Cloudveil catalog.

 

 

[John Frieh]

Mod. Nomic with quark head. Stephen Koch did it in his garage.

[Dane]

 

I had thought Koch was sponsored by Petzl at one time. Maybe not. The "Nuark" isn't the only one around or the only version.

I'd bet it was one of the first.

 

FYI www.COLDTHISTLE.com (site up soon) will have the Nomic hammer mod (and other trick ice/alpine climbing offerings) available commercially on your parts or new parts next week. PM me *NOW* if you are interested in some of the first batch. Delivery can be as early as Dec 1. On your parts, $50 including shipping back to you. A few new sets (hammer and Astro pick) will also be available before Dec 1.

 

Ascent Design/Ralph Burns photo

http://www.ascent-design.com/index.html

[cory.nyc]

Im picking up a new fusion this afternoon after climbing from rock and snow, so psyched!!!!!!!!!!

[pcooke]

Hey Dane,

The hammer mods look pretty sweet.... I use the nomics pretty much exclusively at this point, and I'm a fan of using them without the head weights. With the hammer mods, what does it do to the weight of the tool compared to the head weights. Would it be a possibility to shave down the thickness of the hammer piece itself? Or would that compromise it's structural integrity too much if you were to pound pins?

-Pat

[dennyt]

Hmm, wonder how many swings before that rear bolt hole in the pick will get ovalized with 2/3rds of its thickness removed.

[Dane]

My version makes the hammer slightly smaller than Ralph's original drawings. Some change in swing weight but not huge.

I was working on a drawing last night with the intention of going even smaller. The new Fusion has may be 2/3 that surface area or less of th Quark hammer head!

 

Hammer is noticable on swing weight/balance. Less so on mixed obviously. More so on pure ice. But I use the weights on pure ice with the Cascade pick. Hammer on one tool with mixed pick on mixed climbs. So the comparison is again obvious.

 

"Hmm, wonder how many swings before that rear bolt hole in the pick will get ovalized with 2/3rds of its thickness removed."

 

First it is 1/2 the thickness of pick and hammer that is removed to mate them together. Where did you get the idea of 2/3s? Same system used on the Quark since that tools inception. No problems with them over a 8 year history of use and abuse. This mod, Nomic hammer, with a milled center is going on its THIRD season and no complaints to date. And ZERO internal wear on hammer heads or picks I have seen and used.

 

The Nomic hammer or Quark for that matter is NOT a Yosemite big wall hammer. Never intended to be. You want to drill and pound out a big wall get a rock hammer. Need to place an occasional pin the Nomic hammer will work fine. Just as the Quark does off the shelf.

 

Also you can pull the hammer off the Nomic and put a spacer in and use the tool just as it came from the factory. Seem at least a dozen Quarks being used in Europe and Canada by hard core climbers with NO back half, hammer or adze, no spacer and no ill effects after some obviously serious abuse to the tools.

 

I use this stuff myself and if there was a problem we would either fix it or go on to something else. I am not into trashing good tools or making my life any scarier than it needs to be by using risky gear.

 

 

[dennyt]

Aah, looked like 2/3rds in the screenshots, my bad. Glad to hear this is working well!