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Does anyone know whether ballnuts would work in this crack in lieu of clipping the pins?

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LOL.

 

Hola George!!!! I'll call you later. Here's my thoughts on things like this. Having been talked out of putting a bolt in a spot where I thought it needed one (still think that way) by George on a FA elsewhere just this spring, and having seen G singlehandedly put up the longest route at Jimmies (respect), I know George isn't the type to wantonly bolt. If he said it needed a bolt, I'd pretty much believe it. However, that said, I haven't been on Dutchman for years. In fact, although I thought my shoulder would be healed enough by now that I could be on the steeper routes like that and my fav, Blownout, again - it ain't happening. So I don't think I have a say in the discourse. Until I can get on it and cleanly lead it with nuts, it's not my place to decide.

 

If it was further afield with bad cell coverage and scant climbers like Chimney or Jimmies, I'd be "go for it". But this is Beacon. I'd want to hear what the regulars who can get up a route like that say after they hop on it. I'm not anti-bolt enough to want someone to auger into the dirt and die before a bolt got put in, but it's worth looking at, talking over and maybe (I said maybe) just slamming in a new pin before that happened. Timetraveler, did you rap off after climbing Jills or the Corner or did you climb it?

 

Or has anyone else done The Flying Dutchman this year and can weight in with their thoughts?

 

ps, thought a bolt picture might be appropo. Ivan on Tower Rock P4 couple weeks back traversing left under the roof. Check that loose block out above him. Don't think I even noticed that when we were there.

 

Ivan_on_lead_P4_Tower_Rock.jpg

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I have led the first pitch of FD a couple dozen times back in the 90's as a pretty mediocre climber and i never felt in danger... it would be cool if that route stayed exactly how it is, maybe George can find another 5.10 he feels comfy cozy on, maybe trying Psychic Wound to the right,,,

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I haven't led the Dutchman this year, TR'd it a few times. Some Portland folks led it last week, and had no complaints about the pro. My thought is that replacing the pins is mandatory if George was able to wiggle it around.

 

Edited by stevetimetravlr

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I just want it on the record that I never said the word "bolt" for the Dutchman. Since I am on the record now, here is my bit:

 

Firstly, I appreciate Beacon as the refuge for trad climbing that it is, and would like to see it stay that way (that is why I am asking if it can be reasonably lead on gear, sans pins). However, I believe that if fixed protection does exist on a route, then it should be able to perform its function (stop a lead fall). That is presumably why the FA placed that protection in the first place... That being said, pins are great! For a first ascent!... To insist that climbers 10, 20, 30 years after the FA continue to rely on those same pieces is IMO unreasonable, because pins obviously aren't reliable long-term fixed protection (especially in our climate).

Additionally, I am not persuaded to leave obviously shitty fixed protection on a route by the argument, "I climb it all the time the way it is..." Unless you have tested (fallen on) the piece, this is not a reasonable argument. If you choose to free-solo a route, or clip obviously useless protection on a route well below your limit, then good for you, but you don't get to then belittle those who ARE climbing at their limit, and who would like the fixed-pro to actually work if needed.

What happens to climbing access at Beacon when someone new to the place gets seriously hurt or killed because they made the mistake of trusting the fixed protection on a route?

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I just want it on the record that I never said the word "bolt" for the Dutchman. Since I am on the record now, here is my bit:

 

Firstly, I appreciate Beacon as the refuge for trad climbing that it is, and would like to see it stay that way (that is why I am asking if it can be reasonably lead on gear, sans pins). However, I believe that if fixed protection does exist on a route, then it should be able to perform its function (stop a lead fall). That is presumably why the FA placed that protection in the first place... That being said, pins are great! For a first ascent!... To insist that climbers 10, 20, 30 years after the FA continue to rely on those same pieces is IMO unreasonable, because pins obviously aren't reliable long-term fixed protection (especially in our climate).

Additionally, I am not persuaded to leave obviously shitty fixed protection on a route by the argument, "I climb it all the time the way it is..." Unless you have tested (fallen on) the piece, this is not a reasonable argument. If you choose to free-solo a route, or clip obviously useless protection on a route well below your limit, then good for you, but you don't get to then belittle those who ARE climbing at their limit, and who would like the fixed-pro to actually work if needed.

What happens to climbing access at Beacon when someone new to the place gets seriously hurt or killed because they made the mistake of trusting the fixed protection on a route?

 

Eloquent and succinct. Bravo. I don't climb at Beacon enough to claim regular status but I absolutely agree with this. Not a big fan of bolts but given the history out there it would seem we're just one accident away from closure or additional regulations.

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What history at Beacon are you referring to John? One fatality in 100 years, and that was a rappelling accident. I am not in disagreement with the above, but the same can be then said of the Index Town Wall, the other bastion of traditional climbing in the NW. Should we pull all the pins at Index and replace them with bolts? Town Crier and Green Dragon both have tons of fixed pins among others. The Flying Dutchman is similar and a multi pitch route. What happens if fixed gear fails? Then the person who made the decision to clip it pays the consequence and is responsible. But the liability rests with the person clipping the gear, whether its fixed or they placed the piece. You accept that when you make the decision to lead a certain climb. Only in a climbing gym do they guarantee the clips. No one can guarantee that outside the gear will stay good, even bolts. Period. To many natural forces working on it. That said, I sure am glad to see some of the questionable bolts being replaced out at Beacon. Kudos to the guys doing the work!

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I was just trying to troll joesph. I myself haven't been on the Dutchman, so my opinion matters none. However I don't generally like fixed gear unless it is a bolt. Scares me.

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OLD LINE GETS NEW LIFE AT BEACON ROCK - "CLOUD NINE, 5.9"

 

Each time I was up on Grassy Ledges I would look over and wonder what route were those old rusty homemade hangers on? A dirty, lichen covered, uninviting slab led up to the first one I could spot but the line looked like it hadn't been climbed in a long time. I kept thinking that it would be cool if the SE Corner route had a bit more climbing and less scrambling after the first 3 pitches and so I started my exploration to uncover Cloud Nine.

 

The first order was to replace the three old homemade hanger bolts with some fresh modern day material. Next was a bit of cleaning to uncover pockets, slots and cracks that would allow for gear placements and to expose some of those edges you will need to dance your way up the crux section.

 

Today along with Matt, I got out and led the line and I must say it makes for a fine alternative to the scrambling portion after Grassy Ledges of the original SE Corner.

 

There are a couple of popular ways that one could get this pitch in:

 

Option 1 - Climb the first 4 pitches of the SE Corner route, stopping at the top of Grassy Ledges just before it dips down to climbers left. Set a belay here using cams; an old bolt stud can be seen at eye level. The route heads out right along a cleaner line of rock which should be obvious at this time.

 

Option 2 - Climb the first 2 pitches of Young Warriors but on the second pitch finish up left to Tree Ledge and belay here. Then merge into the fourth pitch of the SE Corner and follow that up to Grassy Ledges. Just before the Grassy Ledge trail dips down to climbers left. Set a belay here using cams; an old bolt stud can be seen at eye level. The route heads out right along a cleaner line of rock which should be obvious at this time.

 

Cloud Nine, 5.9, 50m

 

Head up right following a shallow ramp and finding good pockets for gear. Continue up the slab trending right until below the first bolt. Climb up through the bolts (crux) finding good edges and a fun series of moves until the terrain eases. From the last bolt step left and continue straight up the corner and crack until you pull up on to a clean slab with a piton to the right. Traverse right to the piton and join the Young Warriors line from here; onward and upward through more fun climbing. Do not stop at the intermediate belay ledge but instead move right up another slab ramp and continue up passing a piton and one last bolt. Belay from the ridge and note that this pitch is about 50m in length.

 

Gear: 0.1 - 2.0 Camalots, 1 Set of Nuts

 

An extra 0.2 & 0.3 is helpful

 

cloud_9_2.jpg

 

2015-08-11_19_11_52.jpg

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Does anyone know whether ballnuts would work in this crack in lieu of clipping the pins?

 

 

I will let you know but that would be a great alternative. I might buy stock in BallNutz if this works and mark them up for Ivan.

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I was just trying to troll joesph. I myself haven't been on the Dutchman, so my opinion matters none. However I don't generally like fixed gear unless it is a bolt. Scares me.

 

Crikey, the usual Beacon bullshit. Love how you guys just make it up as you go along. To be clear, I've never said the pins at Beacon ARE bomb. I said I checked and either reset or replaced any bad pins in 2006-7. I also did say:

 

a) That comparing the performance over time of the pins I checked compared to the 144 anchor bolts I replaced, the pins WAY out-performed the bolts, one of which broke simply under the weight of the breaker bar being on it and another that broke before a quarter turn.

 

b) That I trust the pins out there more than the old bolts because I've checked both and seen the performance over time of both (and thinking bolts are always better than pins is right up there with thinking cams are better than nuts).

 

c) That fixed pro - pins or bolts - need to be maintained on some regular basis, like maybe a full survey every five or six years, but then yeah, just like everyone adopting a south face column line to keep clean every year, that would take some actual time, effort and sweat which for sure has never been on the agenda.

 

The BRCA has been exclusively in the closure biz for years now. Done an anchor survey? No? Developed a fix-pro maintenance schedule? No? Developed your own fixed pro management plan? No?

 

What a friggin' surprise...

 

New year, same wank. Carry on.

 

P.S. Oh, and if the 3rd pin on FD is loose, maybe skip the online operatic and just go reset fucking pin. Or, of course, you could retro bolt the whole place to Planet Granite standards and make everyone nice and safe.

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Joseph's point regarding the maintenance of fixed anchors whether they be bolts or pins is spot on. Both are effective forms of fixed protection but without a plan the responsibility falls on the individual climber. I don't have an issue with that myself but working with the Portland Rebolting Team it's obvious how much more efficient it can be with an organized plan.

 

Costs, time, records, etc. are all easier to keep track of when we do it as a collective. Hopefully the latest Beacon Committee will recognize and address that issue.

 

Rescues cost much more than regular maintenance and I don't mean in purely a monetary way.

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All the pins out at Beacon are bomber. Joe check each and every one of them constantly. No need to replace a bomber pin with a shitty bolt. :)

 

 

LOL

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Jesus fucking crist. Just go replace with a bolt and nobody will know. Except the folks who climb this route and I promise all of them (exept JH) will be thanking god you replaced pins (OLD FUCKING SCHOOL) with new awesome bolts.

 

ALL the pins on FD should be replaced with bolts.

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http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1110882/all/TR_Beacon_Rock_Young_Warriors_

 

 

"Such a great TR on such a classic Beacon line. If you want a little more adventure. I recommend doing all 5 pitches sans bolts, pitons or any anchor bolts. My partner and I did this last summer and called it the Boltless Warrior. It's a little heady at times but totally doable. Super fun."

 

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You k-12s gonna just blow by this?

RE: Cloud 9: "Im surprised you-know-who didnt chop this route like some of the other routes up there. There are still a couple of other amazing pitches up there that need freshening up. A 10d**(forget the name) and an 11 called High and Mighty ****that still hasnt been led! Not to mention Death and Taxes( which did get chopped, and thats ok by me as it was rap bolted and obnoxious)."

 

Go get Cloud Nine! Then go back to your trolling.

 

 

OLD LINE GETS NEW LIFE AT BEACON ROCK - "CLOUD NINE, 5.9"

 

Each time I was up on Grassy Ledges I would look over and wonder what route were those old rusty homemade hangers on? A dirty, lichen covered, uninviting slab led up to the first one I could spot but the line looked like it hadn't been climbed in a long time. I kept thinking that it would be cool if the SE Corner route had a bit more climbing and less scrambling after the first 3 pitches and so I started my exploration to uncover Cloud Nine.

 

The first order was to replace the three old homemade hanger bolts with some fresh modern day material. Next was a bit of cleaning to uncover pockets, slots and cracks that would allow for gear placements and to expose some of those edges you will need to dance your way up the crux section.

 

Today along with Matt, I got out and led the line and I must say it makes for a fine alternative to the scrambling portion after Grassy Ledges of the original SE Corner.

 

There are a couple of popular ways that one could get this pitch in:

 

Option 1 - Climb the first 4 pitches of the SE Corner route, stopping at the top of Grassy Ledges just before it dips down to climbers left. Set a belay here using cams; an old bolt stud can be seen at eye level. The route heads out right along a cleaner line of rock which should be obvious at this time.

 

Option 2 - Climb the first 2 pitches of Young Warriors but on the second pitch finish up left to Tree Ledge and belay here. Then merge into the fourth pitch of the SE Corner and follow that up to Grassy Ledges. Just before the Grassy Ledge trail dips down to climbers left. Set a belay here using cams; an old bolt stud can be seen at eye level. The route heads out right along a cleaner line of rock which should be obvious at this time.

 

Cloud Nine, 5.9, 50m

 

Head up right following a shallow ramp and finding good pockets for gear. Continue up the slab trending right until below the first bolt. Climb up through the bolts (crux) finding good edges and a fun series of moves until the terrain eases. From the last bolt step left and continue straight up the corner and crack until you pull up on to a clean slab with a piton to the right. Traverse right to the piton and join the Young Warriors line from here; onward and upward through more fun climbing. Do not stop at the intermediate belay ledge but instead move right up another slab ramp and continue up passing a piton and one last bolt. Belay from the ridge and note that this pitch is about 50m in length.

 

Gear: 0.1 - 2.0 Camalots, 1 Set of Nuts

 

An extra 0.2 & 0.3 is helpful

 

cloud_9_2.jpg

 

2015-08-11_19_11_52.jpg

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http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1110882/all/TR_Beacon_Rock_Young_Warriors_

 

 

"Such a great TR on such a classic Beacon line. If you want a little more adventure. I recommend doing all 5 pitches sans bolts, pitons or any anchor bolts. My partner and I did this last summer and called it the Boltless Warrior. It's a little heady at times but totally doable. Super fun."

 

 

Wow....last time I checked. Young Warriors and FD were different routes.

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