crimper Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Picture this: You are onsighting an all-gear climb that is at your limit. At the crux there is a 6 inch long parallel crack - say orange metolius width - and no crack above or below it, so you stick that cam in there. Yet you also need to use this part of the crack for your hand, as this was the only way you could even hold on long enough to place the cam and there are no face holds. As you insert your hand to jam, the lower part of your jam sure feels locker as you torque down against your cam - but it feels less secure if you flinch upwards so you are no longer contacting the cam. So you reluctantly let your hand "cam" against the cam to create a better jam, and move through the crux. Did you onsight the climb, or did you aid through the crux? or is the only opinion that matters your own? If tommy caldwell does this one while "freeing" a route on El Cap, does he have to add an asterisk to his "free" ascent? (And I know this is a silly question, but it's happened to me enough times now that i'm curious what others think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Damn. Who's hand jamming orange metolius size? Better be careful "aiding" this way because you can quickly turn that good placement into junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 call it whatever size you want, my only question is whether having your handhold/jam improved because it happens to touch a cam - or a nut, which won't rotate into a "junk" placement if you put downward force on it - is aid climbing? if stepping on a pin in a crack is aiding, because you get a better foothold then having just part of your toes in the crack, then why isn't the above scenario also aiding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 der Hubers avoid this by running it out. If your hand needs to go there then you don't take away your handhold with a cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 g spotter, i hear you but that's not what i am talking about. i'm talking about placements big enough to fit both, but you realize that by sliding your hold down the crack until it touches the cam that you can create a better jam, and it feels "contrived" to move your hand up and feel less secure..... does a "free" climber move his/her hand off the cam like it was a burning coal? or just keep climbing with the "aid" of the cam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 It depends on whether your belayer saw you or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Pete H-- good one! I think G-spotter brings up a good point re not taking up your holds with gear placements. Sometimes it is unavoidably a choice between using the available crack for one OR the other. I think some climbs are even rated with this fact in mind, with one rating for toproping or another, stiffer rating for leading. "Agent Orange" at Index comes to mind. There's only like three tiny cracks on that whole thing, and right where you really need a finger jam...if you had to lead the thing on gear, there'd be NO holds there. It's rated .11a as a toprope, .11d X as a gear lead. Crillz is wise to warn about not making a habit out of using your placements this way. We've all seen what happens when a shoelace or sling catches even a well-placed piece as we move past it. Better to place your pro and then avoid touching it again as you make your moves. If I feel my hand press against a piece during a move, I don't count it as clean in my book. But that's just because I like to raise the bar on myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 It depends on whether your belayer saw you or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 A bit silly but hey, why not. A strong climber (strong enough to making news, FAs or whatever) isn't going to be dumb enough to plug up a useful jam with gear. Even if there is some case where hands and gear are shoved in same feature, this doesn't make the move any easier, in fact you probably just made the move XXX harder by having your fingers jammed onto a slick bit of uneven metal instead of nice bit of rock. This happens to me every so often and usually I curse myself for plugging up a jam. So no, touching gear with a jam isn't aiding unless your doing it specifically to make the moves easier. Again, this is not relevant on a crux lead as your going be above your gear anyway. Side note. Many "strong" climbers are very honest about this. Adam Ondra skipped a bolt on a route because he felt the rope drag he was getting was making him few pounds lighter as he traversed away from it. Beth Rodden elected to re-lead the crux pitch of the Nose as she felt like was getting help form the rope drag created by a bolt that was clipped high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 hearing some of these comments makes me glad i threw the question out there. i am only talking about instances where touching the gear actually made your handhold feel better. (if it felt worse, i wouldn't be wondering if i was being "aided" or "aiding" on the gear) this happened to me somewhere on wrong gull yesterday - i think on a .5 below the crux and i distinctly did NOT move my hand off the cam because as i did the hold felt worse. so i made the move, glad for the extra security offered by a cam that served as a horizontal ledge below my pinkie finger. PS - i have sent this climb before, which might be why i didn't hesitate about taking the slight aid offered by the cam. if it was an onsight, i might have quickly moved my jam back up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 on another note, what is the difference between letting your hand settle and rest on a cam, while in a jam - as opposed to simply grabbing the cam? the latter obviously ruins a free ascent, but the former is more nebulous. if it's an accidental brush, who cares? but if you find yourself pumped, and letting your jam "rest" on the cam, then aren't you aiding???? i guess the bottom line is that generally we live up to our own standards, and we only compete against ourselves. like nate said, if you think that you aided the climb - even accidentally, like through rope tension or my cam example - and that this aid is the only reason you freed the climb, you probably won't count your ascent as a free one, and you'll go back and try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 A0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 You need to climb a big wall, something like this wouldn't even cross your mind. If it was a first ascent or if it was a 5.13 and you were one of the few to do it maybe it would be an issue. But if you could have climbed it with or without the "aid" then why worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 if you are using the gear to protect an ascent but climb on the rock, that's free climbing. if you use the gear in order to ascend, then that's aid. the scenario proposed at the outset of this thread clearly sounds like aid to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 mark it zero, next frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 mark it zero, next frame. gotta go with donny on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 your concience will tell you if it was aid or not.... I had this problem on a hard fingercrack where the best pro for the crux was a nut in a good fingerlock. the only other pro without the nut was a scetchy purple metolius in a flare. I placed the nut but when I used the jam my fingers touched it lightly.. I didn't care because without the nut my fingers would still be perfectly jammed, just 1/8 of an inch lower.... but if I made a shitty jam good by resting my fingers on my gear I would know in my heart that I cheated and just go ithout the protection, or better yet, place the gear when I am a move above that hold and place the gear down at my waist wich is easier anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 If tommy caldwell does this one while "freeing" a route on El Cap, does he have to add an asterisk to his "free" ascent? Tommy Caldwell would have sunk a bolt next to the crack. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 mark it zero, next frame. gotta go with donny on this one. But... that's Walter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 you're right, donny is the other guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 mark it zero, next frame. Do you see what happens when you fk and stranger in the ass...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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