Sport vs Trad

[Bug]

Aren't you ashamed of yourselves for entering this horrible wasteland?

 

yes.

 

it was all I imagined it would be

Sorry again soundbite.

I wasn't talking to you.

 

then PM someone. you posted to the forum - free for anyone to respond to

Relax.

I have come to enjoy your soundbites.

You are always welcome to spew another.

Just don't expect a sweet response.

 

[Bug]

Sorry K but your understanding of archeology is exposing a distinct ignorance.

 

see Ivan's post. if you don't "get it", so be it

 

Gee. Let's look just a little deeper that typical spray for a second. Even at the risk of exposing the ignorance of an Ivan post. Rare I know but true non-the-less.

A guy who studies macro-sociological processes by exposing their ruins is now the least qualified to comment on a sociological process like "the development of bolted routes vs climbing styles that utilize non-permanent methods".

Chime in here Ivan.

Do a) permanent bolts or b) a "leave no trace ethic" seem more like the earmarks of ancient Egypt?

If you get that one right, move on to the next one.

Which one is a famous quote that is used to justfy the study of history? a) "History repeats itself.", or b) "Who gives a fuck!"

With me so far?

Probably down to 50% of the class here but let's try one more.

If we don't want to repeat huge mistakes that were made by previous societies, should we a) Learn from past societies' mistakes, or b)Permanently alter another pristine cliff while sailing on LSD?.

I know Ivan. Trick question.

Take your time.

[StevenSeagal]

Good point...and if people weighting trad gear is a drag, then you best not ever watch anyone climb El Cap.

 

Only a good point if you're missing the point - read my response to that post of Rob's above.

 

I did...decent point there but most climbers I know make sound judgements about gear and have a strong skill in risk assessment, which covers those concerns of which you speak. Which goes back to my point, which is that your assertion that dogging gear is inherently dangerous is merely that- an assertion that may be true in some cases but one that is without merit if you try to make it a universal truth. In other words, it's b.s.

 

 

 

Personally I would argue that dogging is if anything safer than committing to falling every time as long as that person knows how to set pro- and if you don't, then you have no business leading at your limit anyway.

 

I have no doubt you'd argue that position. But aside from dangerous aspect of dogging and the issue of the ancient notion of ethics, the other reason it's just flat out a behavioral bad idea is if you actually do develop some skills and balls, you'll sooner or later find yourself runout with no possible option of placing pro to dog, and after conditioning yourself with dogging you're way more likely to meltdown than gut it through.

 

"ancient notion of ethics"? 40 years hardly makes something ancient. I still assert that ethics in this case is contrived. I have no issue with the old school way of lowering off after a fall. In some respects, I'll grant that it could be considered more sporting, trying to get it clean with as little knowledge as possible. Having said that, practitioners of either method are aiming for the same thing, they are just using different paths. To assert the ethical superiority of one over the other when neither harms another is pure egotism.

 

How differently, really , is working a route on toprope versus on lead? It's all practice, and on lead there is still the risk of falling and therefore there exists the opportunity to practice ongoing risk assessment at the same time, keeping your lead head sharp. So I'm not buying this notion that people who hangdog are more likely to "meltdown" when faced with a runout. I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest the contrary in fact. In the end, I hear people like you and Raindawg denigrating 5.13 redpoints as illegitimate on the basis of the style, yet most 5.13 climbers can hike onsight just about any 5.11 or 5.12- gee, how did they get that strong?

 

For someone who has ranted against religious ideologues so fervently, you sound so very similar to them- full of indignant righteousness. It's a good thing you old dudes didn't used to lead with one arm tied behind your back.

[phillygoat]

Be Miles Davis!

 

Had climbing been of interest, the last thing thing Miles would have been is a sport climber and the venue he'd least have been interested in would be a gym - Miles was all about risking.

 

And the mere idea that there is anything avante garde about the riskless entertainment climbing the suburban hordes have glommed onto is just the sort of self-fulfilling delusion that attracts them in the first place.

 

Full Heinous Cling (ground up): Go Pat!

[Kimmo]

It's a good thing you old dudes didn't used to lead with one arm tied behind your back.

 

 

 

[Kimmo]

Gee. Let's look just a little deeper that typical spray for a second. Even at the risk of exposing the ignorance of an Ivan post. Rare I know but true non-the-less.

A guy who studies macro-sociological processes by exposing their ruins is now the least qualified to comment on a sociological process like "the development of bolted routes vs climbing styles that utilize non-permanent methods".

Chime in here Ivan.

Do a) permanent bolts or b) a "leave no trace ethic" seem more like the earmarks of ancient Egypt?

If you get that one right, move on to the next one.

Which one is a famous quote that is used to justfy the study of history? a) "History repeats itself.", or b) "Who gives a fuck!"

With me so far?

Probably down to 50% of the class here but let's try one more.

If we don't want to repeat huge mistakes that were made by previous societies, should we a) Learn from past societies' mistakes, or b)Permanently alter another pristine cliff while sailing on LSD?.

I know Ivan. Trick question.

Take your time.

 

if this had anything, Anything, to do with donald's position, you might have something, but since it doesn't, it's just pissin in the wind.

[Raindawg]

Off... Sport-climbers have demeaned the climbing experience

 

see, this is the problem: you have a solipsistic view of climbing, and that's why it seems people have the frustration they have with you. you project your personal internal perception outwards, universalizing it into a broad ethical maxim: "THE Climbing Experience has been demeaned, I Proclaim!" (Not A climbing experience, or MY climbing experience, but THE (universal) climbing experience!).

 

It's my perspective (and not mine alone)....feel free to disagree. I'm well aware of the other viewpoints and after weighing their merits, I'm still oppossed to certain things.

 

You seem as dumb as the rest, but with a bigger vocabulary.

 

Go sit in the corner with your buddies....maybe you can trade more insults in Finnish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[el jefe]

Be Miles Davis!

 

Had climbing been of interest, the last thing thing Miles would have been is a sport climber and the venue he'd least have been interested in would be a gym - Miles was all about risking.

 

And the mere idea that there is anything avante garde about the riskless entertainment climbing the suburban hordes have glommed onto is just the sort of self-fulfilling delusion that attracts them in the first place.

 

Full Heinous Cling (ground up): Go Pat!

 

hey phillip, this is clearly the best post in this entire thread!

[Raindawg]

Any time you want to hook up for some trad, PM me.

 

That doesn't sound like it would be very fun.

If what I've experienced from you here is any indication, I don't think we'd get along at all.

(Are you that desperate for climbing buddies??? I'm not.)

Maybe you'd have a better time with Choada Boy, Kimmo and maybe even Ivan and you can all have a gas-bag competition.

[Kimmo]

It's my perspective

 

thank you donald for the clarification; i appreciate your humility and maturity in correcting your mistake.

 

 

[pope]

I have no issue with the old school way of lowering off after a fall. In some respects, I'll grant that it could be considered more sporting, trying to get it clean with as little knowledge as possible. Having said that, practitioners of either method are aiming for the same thing, they are just using different paths. To assert the ethical superiority of one over the other when neither harms another is pure egotism.

Well there's ethics and then there's style. Style has to do with choices one makes during a climb which cannot be detected by the next party to ascend the route. If you wish to dog on the rope and pull on gear while you're ampin' up for the big "send", that's generally a stylistic choice. In other words, choosing aid climbing as your mode probably won't affect the next guy, not unless you then claim a first free ascent without reporting your poor style.

 

 

 

How differently, really , is working a route on toprope versus on lead?

There is no difference. So why bother with all the bolts?

 

 

In the end, I hear people like you and Raindawg denigrating 5.13 redpoints as illegitimate on the basis of the style, yet most 5.13 climbers can hike onsight just about any 5.11 or 5.12- gee, how did they get that strong?

How? I'm sure your answer is that sport climbing is the secret to their strength, a point which is frequently made. Really? Then shouldn't every bolt chaser be capable of 5.13? I know more than a few who don't come close. Furthermore, elite climbers achieved tremendous levels of fitness before sport climbing arrived, not to mention the ability to climb hard routes with difficult protection.

[Kimmo]

You seem as dumb as the rest, but with a bigger vocabulary.

 

 

Although I must say I was highly disappointed that someone of your obviously upper-crust sensibilities and breeding would resort to a profanity such as "D&mb@ss".

 

Donald Donald Donald. I do believe your parents and spiritual teachers would also be disappointed, yes?

 

 

 

 

[Raindawg]

I do believe your parents and spiritual teachers would also be disappointed, yes?

 

You know neither my parents nor my "spiritual teachers" and if you did, you would know that their only disappointment would be that I waste my time responding to the likes of you.

 

 

[Kimmo]

Now I'm even more disappointed; disappointed that they would approve of your profanity-laced tirades against your fellow man.

 

Donald Donald Donald. I am saddened. I will say a little prayer for you.

[PhöQ]

Donald, you need to increase your alcohol intake slightly.

[JosephH]

Last I recall seeing Heinous Cling it looked to be a matter of safe, completely clean falls. Hell, I've done .12 top ropes that are more dangerous than that with the side benefit of being impossible to dog on.

[Kimmo]

just run-out, that's all. it got retro-bolted unfortunately. along with a few other awesome lines originally led on gear or partial gear.

[Peter_Puget]

I remember leading the bottom when it required a bunch of RPs. I seem to remember that a lot of those placements (and other placements on some other routes) were a bit on the manufactured side. I always thought the top half would make a good TR Haven't been on it since it was bolted/rebolted whatever the correct terminology is.

 

 

Quote a few years old by Miles' fav guitarist:

 

Over the last 10 years however, I have been sometimes disappointed by the general lack of imagination and innovation in Jazz Music. There has been a very powerful wave of retrospection on the part of the main record companies, with the result that groups emulating the ¬sound¬ and playing techniques of the 1960«s have to some degree, dominated the CD Jazz shelves in stores, furthemore, this phenomenon has exerted an enormous influence on the younger players to remain based in the music of the 1960«s , with the result that a stultifying effect has been created, inhibiting more daring and innovative music in Jazz.

 

 

 

[builder206]

Do you remember when Minx used to post on cc.com?

 

that was awesome

 

You sure post a lot for someone who quit climbing. Hey, can I put your draw on my rack now? Why not give me the rest of your stuff, too.

[el jefe]

Last I recall seeing Heinous Cling it looked to be a matter of safe, completely clean falls. Hell, I've done .12 top ropes that are more dangerous than that with the side benefit of being impossible to dog on.

 

in the era of the giants when you bestrode the earth with your seven league boots and forearms like popeye. them were the days, i tell ye. climbers today got no balls and is weak as kittens. bolts sap a man's strength, make him into a womanish creature and a pitiable sight. the whole world should just give up climbing and line up to watch the mighty JosephH and the indomitable Raindawg talk us to death with their endless gobbledy-gook and senile confabulations...

[el jefe]

I do believe your parents and spiritual teachers would also be disappointed, yes?

 

You know neither my parents nor my "spiritual teachers" and if you did, you would know that their only disappointment would be that I waste my time responding to the likes of you.

 

 

 

wash day at the clock factory -- one of my favorites!

[kevbone]

Oh, I'm quite willing to admit ethics have all but evaporated from 'climbing' these days -

 

Not true JH......I have a ton of ethics....just not your ethics.

[AlpineK]

This group is making some major headway on the great bolting debate. Maybe we should all take part in the world conference on bolted sport climbs.

[kevbone]

 

Got anything you want to say about sport vs. trad climbing?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. I love to place gear (first climb ever was up the SE corner at Beacon). I never sport climbed for the first three or four years of climbing. Then started to sport climb and fell in love with that as well. Now I love both. There is a place for both. Sport climbing makes you strong for crack climbing.

 

Don....please come down and come climbing with me. We will go to Beacon and have a great day. I am sure we can get JH and Bill coe to join us.

 

Kevin

[Bug]

Gee. Let's look just a little deeper that typical spray for a second. Even at the risk of exposing the ignorance of an Ivan post. Rare I know but true non-the-less.

A guy who studies macro-sociological processes by exposing their ruins is now the least qualified to comment on a sociological process like "the development of bolted routes vs climbing styles that utilize non-permanent methods".

Chime in here Ivan.

Do a) permanent bolts or b) a "leave no trace ethic" seem more like the earmarks of ancient Egypt?

If you get that one right, move on to the next one.

Which one is a famous quote that is used to justfy the study of history? a) "History repeats itself.", or b) "Who gives a fuck!"

With me so far?

Probably down to 50% of the class here but let's try one more.

If we don't want to repeat huge mistakes that were made by previous societies, should we a) Learn from past societies' mistakes, or b)Permanently alter another pristine cliff while sailing on LSD?.

I know Ivan. Trick question.

Take your time.

 

if this had anything, Anything, to do with donald's position, you might have something, but since it doesn't, it's just pissin in the wind.

F+

Pay attention!