Hey RumR: Read This......

[Peter_Puget]

I constantly see people talk about their trad vs. sport leading ability. Invariably they lead harder sport vs. trad. The only logical reason, if you know how to climb, for this to be so is the fact that sport ratings tend to be softer than trad ratings. Most sport climbs were put up after 1985 and there is no question that ratings have softened since that time. Case in point: Boulder Canyon sport vs. Boulder Canyon Trad, City of Rocks and Mt. Lemmon sport vs. trad, Little Cottonwood Canyon vs. Maple Canyon, Gunks compared to Romney- it goes on and on and on.

 

- Jim Donini

 

He's right that in general sport should equal trad. I think where it might not sport should be > than trad because of limited placement opportunities.

 

 

 

 

[olyclimber]

isn't the rating associated with the difficulty rather than how you protect? i guess if you trust the placements (bolts) you might climb harder than a marginally placed cam. within trad there is the split between crack and face climbing...is there a ratings difference there at one crag with both (say Index)?

[catbirdseat]

 

He's right that in general sport should equal trad. I think where it might not sport should be > than trad because of limited placement opportunities.

 

 

 

The difficult of the moves should be the same and that's all. It does not follow that one who can lead a sport route of a given difficulty should be able to lead a trad route of the same rating. Even if the sport ratings are not "soft" it should be harder to lead trad.

 

First you are lugging more weight and then it takes more time to place gear. If you can't lead harder sport routes than trad routes, it is because you are either weak, or because you are relatively poor at face climbing.

[Rad]

Totally agree with catbird. Next time you're on a sport climb carry your rack, pull a tricam off your harness at each bolt, clip it to the bolt, then clip a runner to the bolt and clip that. Alternatively, just hold your hand over the bolt while you sing the alphabet song. Surely more strenuous than just clipping the bolt.

 

That said, there is another factor: usually older climbs have stiffer ratings than newer ones, and most trad climbs are older than sport climbs. In an area where both types went up at the same time then the ratings should be closer.

[Bug]

(Sport/2)2 = Trad

[TimL]

Totally agree with catbird. Next time you're on a sport climb carry your rack, pull a tricam off your harness at each bolt, clip it to the bolt, then clip a runner to the bolt and clip that. Alternatively, just hold your hand over the bolt while you sing the alphabet song. Surely more strenuous than just clipping the bolt.

 

That said, there is another factor: usually older climbs have stiffer ratings than newer ones, and most trad climbs are older than sport climbs. In an area where both types went up at the same time then the ratings should be closer.

 

Funny, this is what i have to explain to all my buddies here in Spain before they go off to climb trad in the States. Here you don't have the huge difference between sport and trad lines. The grades are fairly equal. It seems to me that after 5.11, the trad grades at Index are a little more in line with sport grades.

 

In terms of placing pieces versus clipping a bolt, depending on your level of experience there isn't that much of a difference. To me the major difference is the weight. If you have some experience trad climbing, you should be able to hit your placements fairly quick as well as be able to look at a climb and see what you'll need. Screwing around for a long time while pacing gear is a sign of inexperience. If your working a hard crack project I see less of a difference cause you know the exact pieces that you'll use and where you'll put them. So it's fairly quick. Lastly sport and trad climing are fairly the same in the sense as you have to run it out till you get a rest and can place gear. Usually on sport climbs the clipping stance is a ok hold and on a trad climb a good jam. On a trad climb you don't place a piece in the middle of the crux unless your super strong or your not going to redpoint. There is a difference, but I beg to differ that once you get beyond moderate grades it's not as different as people think.

Edited June 13, 2009 by TimL

[el jefe]

"If you have some experience trad climbing, you should be able to hit your placements fairly quick"

 

i think this point explains why most people describe a difference between the sport and trad grades they lead: not so quick to find the right piece of gear climbing trad as when climbing sport. donini's comment is just another one way of saying "men were manlier in my day." trad grades aren't harder than sport grades and it isn't harder to climb trad than sport, only different. as TimL says, the difference is in being tuned into the gear and the placements, not the climbing.

[Rad]

There is another difference that hasn't been mentioned: On a bolted route someone has already defined how the pitch will be protected. In contrast, on a trad pitch you must decide how to protect the pitch yourself. Some pitches are very straight forward, others require conserving gear for higher cruxes or anchors, being mindful of ropedrag, and figuring out placements that are not immediately obvious. This costs time and drains mental energy. It is also the reason why I find trad onsights particularly fulfilling.

 

Thus, I'd propose that ONSIGHTING a trad pitch is harder than ONSIGHTING a sport pitch of the same grade. I agree with Tim that the difficulty of redpointing trad and sport routes is probably probably pretty comparable once the moves, gear placements, and clipping stances have been worked out.

[NoahT]

Agree with Rad...

 

I don't think one can faithfully argue that grabbing a draw off the harness and slapping it on a bolt is equivalent to: noting a good placement, grabbing a biner full of nuts, fanning em out, picking the one you knew you wanted, and setting it so it doesn't suck.

 

You can be absolutely dead on with all your gear fiddling and placements, and its still quicker to grab a draw and clip it. Trad climbing is generally more involved, thus what some might consider a bit harder. Not any one move, just overall.

 

 

[bigwallben]

I'm of the opinion that grades are not harder for trad or sport. The difficulty seems to be about the same regardless. Also, I don't think the older trad routes are really that much more difficult than newer sport climbs (like the phoenix in yos or the pyromania route in the needles arn't any different than climbing 13a sport routes in wa). Grading vicissitudes seem more apparent to me depending on the area, not the genre. If a climber has mastered all the skills and genres of rock climbing, grades will tend to stabilize. If all one does is climb 99% at little si (having never spent time on granite) and then goes for a jaunt to Index, odds are that that person will get completely owned at Index. Though, I would say the same of a climber who climbs at Index (never having climbed anything steep) and then goes to an area where you actually have to hang on with your forearms (like little si). That person would probably be equally owned; but of course for different reasons.

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

[Raindawg]

donini's comment is just another one way of saying "men were manlier in my day."

 

Jim Donini is probably manlier than most everyone on this site and it STILL is his day.

 

[pope]

"If you have some experience trad climbing, you should be able to hit your placements fairly quick"

 

i think this point explains why most people describe a difference between the sport and trad grades they lead: not so quick to find the right piece of gear climbing trad as when climbing sport. donini's comment is just another one way of saying "men were manlier in my day." trad grades aren't harder than sport grades and it isn't harder to climb trad than sport, only different. as TimL says, the difference is in being tuned into the gear and the placements, not the climbing.

 

Big Jim is far more qualified to provide perspective than any a-hole who contributes to cc.com discussions, and that includes el jefe, peewee puget, and pope. "Men were manlier in my day?" Got news for you, jefe, this IS his day.

 

Personally, I do believe generational differences account for sport grades which are, with few counterexamples, much easier than equivalent trad grades. By this I mean, most post-1985 climbs are so F-ing easy for the grade. At 5.12 and beyond, I can't comment because I've never been athletic enough to sample such climbs. But up to 5.11 and 5.12-, I suggest knocking a full letter grade or more off a typical sport climb to compute the trad equivalent, for climbs put up in the 80's.

 

I suspect the reason for this is the same reason that popularized sport climbing in the first place. Climbers of low talent, impatient with the learning curve or working through the grades, when climbing harder also meant learning how to fiddle in #3 RP's, and feeling inferior because somebody in California was climbing harder than they were, decided that bolts placed on rap were legitimate. With this development, one could clip bolts on a climb that was technically as hard as some trad climb that he could only ascend via top-rope. With only top-rope ascents (and hangdog ascents) of difficult pitches for perspective, climbers graded their new sport climbs without the knowledge of the true difficulty involved in leading these routes.

 

The second generation of sport climbers was even more lazy and pathetic, applying softer and softer grades so their names would appear in conjunction with the 5.12 grade in the next edition of the local guidebook. In hopes of getting a blow job.

[olyclimber]

So blow jobs are the downfall of climbing. Interesting theory.

[Off_White]

Big Jim is far more qualified to provide perspective than any a-hole who contributes to cc.com discussions, and that includes el jefe, peewee puget, and pope. "Men were manlier in my day?" Got news for you, jefe, this IS his day.

 

Nah, these days (by his own admission) Jim uses tape, and to quote Dick Cilley, "Tape is aid."

 

Men in the prior generation have always been manlier, I believe Plato has a rant about the softness of the younger generation. Nonetheless, I bet Lynn Hill could've waxed Plato's ass. Hell, even I was harder in the last generation: I was just down in the Valley repeating some old moderate classics and happily plugging cams into cracks, glad that I wasn't fiddling with a small rack of nuts like when I'd last led those routes 30 odd years ago. Back then I believe I was glad I didn't have a small rack of pins.

[el jefe]

"If you have some experience trad climbing, you should be able to hit your placements fairly quick"

 

i think this point explains why most people describe a difference between the sport and trad grades they lead: not so quick to find the right piece of gear climbing trad as when climbing sport. donini's comment is just another one way of saying "men were manlier in my day." trad grades aren't harder than sport grades and it isn't harder to climb trad than sport, only different. as TimL says, the difference is in being tuned into the gear and the placements, not the climbing.

 

Big Jim is far more qualified to provide perspective than any a-hole who contributes to cc.com discussions, and that includes el jefe, peewee puget, and pope. "Men were manlier in my day?" Got news for you, jefe, this IS his day.

 

Personally, I do believe generational differences account for sport grades which are, with few counterexamples, much easier than equivalent trad grades. By this I mean, most post-1985 climbs are so F-ing easy for the grade. At 5.12 and beyond, I can't comment because I've never been athletic enough to sample such climbs. But up to 5.11 and 5.12-, I suggest knocking a full letter grade or more off a typical sport climb to compute the trad equivalent, for climbs put up in the 80's.

 

I suspect the reason for this is the same reason that popularized sport climbing in the first place. Climbers of low talent, impatient with the learning curve or working through the grades, when climbing harder also meant learning how to fiddle in #3 RP's, and feeling inferior because somebody in California was climbing harder than they were, decided that bolts placed on rap were legitimate. With this development, one could clip bolts on a climb that was technically as hard as some trad climb that he could only ascend via top-rope. With only top-rope ascents (and hangdog ascents) of difficult pitches for perspective, climbers graded their new sport climbs without the knowledge of the true difficulty involved in leading these routes.

 

The second generation of sport climbers was even more lazy and pathetic, applying softer and softer grades so their names would appear in conjunction with the 5.12 grade in the next edition of the local guidebook. In hopes of getting a blow job.

 

pope, you're like those japanese soldiers they found back in the 60s hiding on remote pacific islands, thinking ww2 was still going on 20 years after it ended...

 

 

 

[RuMR]

"If you have some experience trad climbing, you should be able to hit your placements fairly quick"

 

i think this point explains why most people describe a difference between the sport and trad grades they lead: not so quick to find the right piece of gear climbing trad as when climbing sport. donini's comment is just another one way of saying "men were manlier in my day." trad grades aren't harder than sport grades and it isn't harder to climb trad than sport, only different. as TimL says, the difference is in being tuned into the gear and the placements, not the climbing.

tim/jeff... ...spot on...

 

All i know is that hot pink and blue taped problem is waaaaay sicker!!

 

 

Edited June 15, 2009 by RuMR

[JosephH]

Pretty simple: more weight, more decisions, more responsibility for self, more risk. By an large, most people climb a sport a grade or two higher than trad because they can't think and control their emotions at the same time. Sport climbing dispenses with a majority of the weight, physical manipulations / time per protection point, and decision-making which together provides the bandwidth and relief necessary to control their emotions.

 

The weight of being responsibie for your own safety - and confidently trusting yourself - is a significant emotional burden which alone accounts for most individuals grade differentials. But those differentials typically apply when sport vs. trad grades are equivalent. Donini isn't talking about that - he's say sport grades are typically soft compared to trad grades. That I can't speak to given I don't sport climb, but I do have my suspicions.

 

Maybe someone here in PDX can contrast Ozone .10s /.11s with equivalent classic Beacon routes of the same grade. How do they stack up against each other?

[Peter_Puget]

Isn’t Jim claiming that for competent climbers trad and sport grades should be equivalent and yet they are not? He gives several examples of locations he claims have grading disparities to support this. If this discrepancy was only due to sport climbers not being proficient in gear placement then climbers like Jim would not experience it at all yet he does. Presumably the same learning curve for placing gear would be in effect in Spain and yet Tim brings up the fact that sport and trad ratings in Spain are more or less comparable unlike here in the States.

 

Sports climbs aren’t new. Here are several examples of old time sport routes with comparable ratings: Sonic Reducer (1982), Explosive Energy Child ( 1976) P1 Athletess Feat ( (1964) . Three different decades; three different numerical ratings. Honeslty I can’t remember if EEC needs a piece or two but if it does I’d just throw in another example.

 

I agree that the “gear placement factor” does play some role but that role is often indeterminate. For example I would expect that places with plug and go gear would have more difficult ratings than trad areas with comparable more difficulties in placing gear. Looking around for locations to test this theory I can only find counter examples: Indian Creek has great pro and yet relatively soft ratings. Fat and out of shape I’d jump on an Indian Creek .13 hand crack w/o worries yet I’d be nervous jumping Darkness At Noon.

 

It seems that at least as often as the fixed gear on sport routes makes a climb easier it can make a climb more difficult. (1) Rarely on trad crack climbs are there mandatory runouts. (2) a manky trad piece can often be backed up with a few more pieces not so with a bad sport bolt. (3) Usually while trad climbing you don’t have to worry about clipping/placing a piece beyond your reach. (4) Get gripped above your piece on a trad climb…just place another and hang.

 

[JosephH]

It seems that at least as often as the fixed gear on sport routes makes a climb easier it can make a climb more difficult. (1) Rarely on trad crack climbs are there mandatory runouts. (2) a manky trad piece can often be backed up with a few more pieces not so with a bad sport bolt. (3) Usually while trad climbing you don’t have to worry about clipping/placing a piece beyond your reach. (4) Get gripped above your piece on a trad climb…just place another and hang.

 

We obviously climb very different trad lines...

[RuMR]

anyone notice that people griping about grades are older and primarily past their cranking prime??

 

Having just come back from a relatively fresh event, with young , energetic, motivated cranking climbers, ratings weren't even an issue...in fact they weren't even rated...and no one gave a shit...

 

and then, you take a climber like Ben, accomplished at both well protected trad, scary trad and hard sport, and well, guess what, he doesn't really care anyway...

 

funny thing, all this hairsplitting, the actual rating is + or - a couple of grades one way or the other...big f-ing deal...

 

and...some areas really have their own rating scale (ie, ex 38) and gee, pretty much everyone figures that out and moves on with it...

[RuMR]

It seems that at least as often as the fixed gear on sport routes makes a climb easier it can make a climb more difficult. (1) Rarely on trad crack climbs are there mandatory runouts. (2) a manky trad piece can often be backed up with a few more pieces not so with a bad sport bolt. (3) Usually while trad climbing you don’t have to worry about clipping/placing a piece beyond your reach. (4) Get gripped above your piece on a trad climb…just place another and hang.

 

We obviously climb very different trad lines...

not really, big guy...back in the day, ol' petey would have given you a decent run for your $$$

[JosephH]

anyone notice that people griping about grades are older and primarily past their cranking prime??

 

Well now it's true that both Donini and I are past our primes as I know our ages. Can't speak to anyone else posting here. I for one am not 'griping about grades' because the past year or so I find myself at this point where I don't really care about grades or even names of climbs - just lines unadorned by all our adjectives. I did post about the sport / trad differential most folks list for themselves and go on about - always an enduring mystery to me.

[Peter_Puget]

Ya here are some of the I am talking about faux trads climbs no one ever climbs: Rostrom, Half Dome Regular Route, West Face El Cap, Nabisco Wall Routes, Lunatic Fringe, Tales of Power.

 

Rudy -I am not gripping about ratings as much as wondering why people don't think sport climbing is gernerally harder than trad.

[RuMR]

i wasn't saying that you, (but poop and joseph were) were griping about ratings...I was just saying that at most, maybe its a letter grade off one way or the other...

 

i honestly think its more what ben said...ie, you will find what you do more of easier...

[JosephH]

(but poop and joseph were) were griping about ratings...

 

Actually, no, I wasn't griping about grades at all. Donini certainly was, I wasn't and am in no position to because I don't sport climb.