mattp Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I may have posted this before, but I am always a little surprised at how so many new climbers focus so much on "building" strong anchors. I don't mean to suggest that belay stations are not important - because they surely are. But in my climbing experience it has almost never and maybe even never come to pass that the belay anchor itself took a large stress load when rock climbing. It is the pro that catches the fall that takes the big fall factors. Again: I don't mean to suggest belay anchors are not important. And the the thought of a falling leader pulling off the belayer is pure horror show. But it is the falling leader that you must worry most about in my opinion and the piece of gear placed just below their fall is probably more crucial than the belay anchor. Quote
Alpinfox Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 9 times out of 10, for me it's the rope I am tied into. Why carry extra (and usually weaker) gear? Are you and Joseph advocating tying into your (let's say three) pieces of gear with the rope or are you advocating equalizing the three pieces with a sling/cordelette, clipping a biner to that, and then cloving your rope to the biner? I know there are methods for equalizing multiple gear placements using the rope (dog-eared bowline), but I find them futzy and prefer the latter scenario described above. Quote
mattp Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I'm with Billcoe here, Mr. Fox. Most of the time I'm most comfortable using a figure eight on the rope, attaching me directly to the most convenient and in my perception (hopefully) "bomber" piece, and then I use other extensions of the rope or maybe runners or whatever seems best to back up that anchor with other gear. I realize that I could "build" a theoretically better anchor with a coredelette, but I like the simplicity of tying directly to something I perceive as solid. Only if I have doubt about my "primary" anchor point, or if there is something else funky like it is not where I find it convenient or something would I actually prefer to use some kind of equalizing set up though, if it seems easy to set up two side-by-side anchors with a sliding X or something I may opt for that. And, in the case of a situation where the anchor points are not convenient, I may not opt for an equalizing rig at all but tie directly to the bomber anchor but use slings or something else to take advantage of the more convenient anchor point. I guess what I'm saying is that, for me, simplicity is as important as SRENE or some other theoretical concept. Quote
JosephH Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 9 times out of 10, for me it's the rope I am tied into. Why carry extra (and usually weaker) gear? Are you and Joseph advocating tying into your (let's say three) pieces of gear with the rope or are you advocating equalizing the three pieces with a sling/cordelette, clipping a biner to that, and then cloving your rope to the biner? For me it's one of those 'maybe' and 'it depends' sort of deals. An anchor has to get pretty dodgey before I start getting too fancy, but when I rarely do equalize things to a power point I'll clove, alpine butterfly, or figure-8 into that once it's finished. Quote
LostCamKenny Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 alpine equalizers are a very quick way of placing gear, and equalizing them into a single point. everyone should know how to properly equalize their own anchors with a cord, but alpine equalizers are super easy and quick to use. ...and fairly light. Quote
SplashClimber Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 re: pictures of anchor setups, quick inital search, not finding anything on rockclimbing.com Anyone find some good links of belay anchor pictures? Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 This anchor is made of two small cams and a hex (the piece on the far right). I have a 6mm cordelette statically equalized and I am tied into this, directly, using the rope and a clove hitch. Then there is a sling to which I have the belay rigged (autoblocker of course). In this case I am belaying my second up and he was coming up on my right and I was comfortably out of his way by being off to the left. Safe, simple, efficient, and effective... Not to mention bomber! Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Your angles look a bit obtuse there... A bit, perhaps... But not dangerously so. I'll give you that the angle between the two outside pieces is a tad wide, but it certainly is closer to 60 degrees than it is to 90 degrees. The angles between the left piece and the middle piece is beautiful, and between the middle piece and the right piece is also good. My anchors are three pieces - always (providing that I have enough placements for them) - and in my time building trad anchors never have I had a partner who thought it was unsafe. But, again, yes, the angle between the left- and the right-hand pieces is a bit wide. The middle piece is directional, however, and works to keep the right-hand piece in place. Quote
NoahT Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 It obviously did the job it was intended to do... That's the important part! Cheers, N Quote
Alpinfox Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Yup, that angle is a little on the wide side. Also looks like it took a long time to build. Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Also looks like it took a long time to build. Funny that you say that... My headlamp batteries died and I had to change them because I couldn't see a thing! the whole thing took about five minutes. since I had to dig in my pack for fresh batteries! Quote
ivan Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 it don't matter how sound your anchor is when you piss off the Great Jaboo! Quote
matt_warfield Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Of course geoff is being a smartass but in all due sincerity, if an unsure rock climber spends one day with an AMGA certified guide they will get the real scoop on anchors and protection from someone that has gone through extensive training and testing in the daylight and at night. It will cost a few bucks but could save your life sometime. But everyone posting here is still alive (I assume) which is a blessing whether through skill or luck. Quote
Alpinfox Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Also looks like it took a long time to build. Funny that you say that... My headlamp batteries died and I had to change them because I couldn't see a thing! the whole thing took about five minutes. since I had to dig in my pack for fresh batteries! Maybe if you built simpler anchors you would get off the climb before dark. Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Five minutes! That must be a record. Definitely... Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Maybe if you built simpler anchors you would get off the climb before dark. Simpler anchors? This was quite simple, fox. Maybe you and Matt_warfield could come up with an AMGA certified anchor pic and demonstrate to the rest of us the err of my ways, not that you're diagram wasn't pretty. If so many disagree with my set-up then post a pic with one that is more acceptable... In that spot I made the best with what I had and what I had worked out really well. Besides, if it was a choice between what I set up and nothing I'd definitely do it again! Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Maybe if you built simpler anchors you would get off the climb before dark. And who said I wanted to be off the climb before dark anyway? Quote
BirdDog Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Well here's a pic of an anchor I built the other day. Granted, pretty simple to "build" an anchor on two bolts. Redundant double slings, sliding X, belayer (me) tied off with a Metolius personnal anchor thingy, autoblock off the anchor, blah, blah, blah. Quote
shaoleung Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Like most folks here, I tend to approach different situations with different anchor set-ups, while almost always wearing my helmet. After reading John Long's new anchors book, I was skeptical of the equalette. I decided to give it a go on a couple of trad climbs 3 years ago and I haven't used a cordulette since. It's a great way to equalize anchors. Safety aside... I am pretty sure I could throw 3 pieces of gear in, equalize and be ready to belay my second in less time than tying in to one solid piece with my rope and then backing that up with a couple more in series. Then of course there's the marmot anchor. It takes a little longer, but it is by far preferable. In this one I had a solid anchor, then clipped the rope through and cloved to a locker on my harness so I could adjust my proximity to the marmot and scream obscenities at my second. Quote
LostCamKenny Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 That marmot is not wearing a helmet. Oh, that was good! I needed that one... thanks sherri!! Quote
shaoleung Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 I tell ya... you'd think even the rodents should know better. That's exactly why I didn't girth hitch the little squealer. Quote
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