Close Gitmo?

[akhalteke]

Tvash, Serenity has been involved with more direct combat action than all but a very few in this country. If there were the indiscriminate slaughter of women and children you so speak of, I am sure he would have seen it.

 

I have never seen it. No-one I have ever talked to has seen it. I am sure it has happened; there are fucked up people out there that do fucked up things. Point is, you have trusted the movies and the fairy tales of the media top paint a picture of what war is.

 

War is not like any of its portrayals. It is not entertaining therefore, its acurate depiction is not well suited for either the big screen or the small ones that adorn every house in America.

 

You, have no idea what you are talking about and you are talking out of your ass as usual. You alluded to the fact that you had been in the armed services; yet refuse to divulge what exactly you did.

 

I can tell by your talk of war that you have no experience with it, nor would you have the stomach for it.

[Fairweather]

My favorite Orwell:

 

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

 

 

If some non-existent, Utopian version of our values leads to our demise then what replaces us will not likely be better.

[ivan]

i see no strawman beyond the one i'm watching on tv w/ me daughter right now

 

i find it disturbing that you think that 5 billion people in this world should have fewer rights than yourself, especially when the rights in question were established in law millienia ago

 

When their "rights" conflict with my (our) right to live (ie: they want to kill us as in the picture above) then I become more concerned about enshrined laws that apply here and less about extraneous law as it exists elsewhere.

furthermore, i find it disturbing that you don't see how these words you just uttered are exactly that same that every tyrant in history has used to justify their tyranny

 

coincidentally, given the drift of this thread, tomorrow's the anniversary of the my lai massacre, a fine example of our gifts to the world and respect for non-american lives (as well as the rule of law, given that no american was given more than a symbolic punishment for cold-blooded, calculated murder of a sort that would have made even a nazi smile) - interestingly, it is also the anniversary of saddam's halabja mass-murder, committed by a puppet of american foreign policy at the time, and a crime that we did not decry until it was convenient to off him (funny that we could make him pay the ultimate price, but not our own stooges, eh?)

 

what was that aobu tus being the bestest country in the world again? and why do we even deserve protecting when we do fucked up shit like this?

[Serenity]

Feel free to expatriate to China anytime bud.

[ivan]

My favorite Orwell:

 

We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

 

 

If some non-existent, Utopian version of our values leads to our demise then what replaces us will not likely be better.

orwell's quote is a bit of a catch-22, no? for when we do rough violence to people in the middle of the night, we make those people want to do us harm. we terrorize them prophylactically. we congragulate ourselves for stopping enemies we created in the first place.

[ivan]

Feel free to expatriate to China anytime bud.

i have no illusions about there being fewer billious bastards or peevish pricks such as yourselves anywhere else on the globe...except maybe the federated states of micronesia, but i hear there's no climbing to be had there

[Fairweather]

You know damn well that the rules in effect now have been in place since the beginning--and The Republic still stands. From the Trail of Tears, to Elmira Prison, to Wilson's Sedition Act, to the internment of American citizens under FDR--some really shitty stuff, and all far worse than a few religious fanatics rounded up fighting American soldiers in far away places and sent to Guantanamo Bay. You want to change the rules? Fine. But don't then try to wash your hands when the fruit hits the basket.

 

I would point out that your tying of The United States to Saddam's atrocities during the 80's and 90's is ridiculous. He was never a 'puppet' of the US.

 

FWIW - Lt Cali should have been shot.

[Serenity]

There have been amazingly few incidents of the My Lai type that have been the doings of American soldiers. This should actually be a testament to the core values of the services. Trying to shine a glaring light on that event does a huge disservice to the greater accomplishments and selfless service of millions.

[ivan]

 

I would point out that your tying of The United States to Saddam's atrocities during the 80's and 90's is ridiculous. He was never a 'puppet' of the US.

huh? we pumped plenty of cash and weapons to him as our puppet to counter-balance iran, another beast of our own making

 

hey, it might be wikipedia, but it can't ALL by lies, eh?

 

and just for fun...it's alwasy fun to see rummy hanging out w/ the big H!

[video:youtube]

[akhalteke]

My favorite Orwell:

 

We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

 

 

If some non-existent, Utopian version of our values leads to our demise then what replaces us will not likely be better.

orwell's quote is a bit of a catch-22, no? for when we do rough violence to people in the middle of the night, we make those people want to do us harm. we terrorize them prophylactically. we congragulate ourselves for stopping enemies we created in the first place.

 

Yeah it sucks. You know what sucks more? Not having anyone to fight for you when you need it.

 

Americans have no idea what it means to truly be in fear of their lives. They play stupid video games about combat, watch 'hardcore' movies and think that they have what it takes to be billy badass.

 

You would all crumble under the stress that 8 year olds live with everyday. Thing is, there will always be people wishing harm upon you. Would you rather let them run over you when ever they saw fit? Or would you rather have someone stand up for you and give these fuckers a swift kick in the balls to make sure they will never do it again?

 

We did not create the terrorists because of our military invasion. The fact that we are "infidels" and live rich opulent lifestyles did. They see us in prosperity, living lives which differ from theirs as much financially as morally.

 

I will never roll over and become the leg humping synchophant that many do to the extremist muslims. They are wrong and if they continue to put into practice their murderous and evil beliefs I will hunt them until they are dead, or I am.

 

You sit in a cubicle and pontificate about ephemeral ideals that work fantastically well when all involved play ball. These fuckers will never play ball. Ever. The only way to end their hatred is with a bullet.

 

What shall we do? Educate those that refuse education because education is immoral? Give them the lifestyle that we have and they hate? Shall we let those that live under their cold cruel tyrrany suffer for their whole lives?

 

Sometimes violence is the answer.

[ivan]

There have been amazingly few incidents of the My Lai type that have been the doings of American soldiers. This should actually be a testament to the core values of the services. Trying to shine a glaring light on that event does a huge disservice to the greater accomplishments and selfless service of millions.

i'm curious, how would you quantify "amazingly few incidents?" seems like u.s. history is chock-full of them, from the pilgrims poisoning the indians w/ spiked wine, the sand creek massacre (another boondoogle which no one paid for, despite all the congressional oversight you could shake a stick it), sherman's march to the sea, the phillipine insurrection, the titanic # of civilians killed by indiscriminate u.s. aerial bombardment in asia and europe during world war 2, vietnam (which had god knows how many dozen more my lai's that never made the papers as a large number of the combat vets from that war i've met attest to w/ our "free fire zones", not to mention the bombing of the north (remember johnson's "polish school?") and then finally to this war - i've seen plenty of pictures of fried civilians, headless kids and old folks, and directly from the soldiers who took the pictures (my own brother, a cav officer in 2003, among them)

 

so what does "amazingly fewer" mean again? amazingly fewer than in operation barbarossa? okay, glad to see we're setting the bar so high

 

and to be clear, it's not so much that i blame the private piles of the us military - he's supposed to a sadistic attack-dog ready to do incredible, indiscriminate violence when his master drops the leash - it's not in the nature of war to be restrained and intelligent in the use of lethal force - which makes it all the more imperative that the leash be held onto tightly except in the most dire of circumnstances

[ivan]

Americans have no idea what it means to truly be in fear of their lives. They play stupid video games about combat, watch 'hardcore' movies and think that they have what it takes to be billy badass.

 

You would all crumble under the stress that 8 year olds live with everyday. Thing is, there will always be people wishing harm upon you. Would you rather let them run over you when ever they saw fit? Or would you rather have someone stand up for you and give these fuckers a swift kick in the balls to make sure they will never do it again?

 

We did not create the terrorists because of our military invasion. The fact that we are "infidels" and live rich opulent lifestyles did. They see us in prosperity, living lives which differ from theirs as much financially as morally.

 

I will never roll over and become the leg humping synchophant that many do to the extremist muslims. They are wrong and if they continue to put into practice their murderous and evil beliefs I will hunt them until they are dead, or I am.

 

You sit in a cubicle and pontificate about ephemeral ideals that work fantastically well when all involved play ball. These fuckers will never play ball. Ever. The only way to end their hatred is with a bullet.

 

What shall we do? Educate those that refuse education because education is immoral? Give them the lifestyle that we have and they hate? Shall we let those that live under their cold cruel tyrrany suffer for their whole lives?

 

Sometimes violence is the answer.

 

you and gandhi woulda gotten along great

 

i think you may be elevating yourself to the position of the "only enlightened one" a bit in error - do you really not think there are a lot of americans who live in fear everday? who don't endure hardship? have you been through our urban ghettoes? worked in them for years? driven through sioux indian reservations? hiked through bum-fuck appalachia? we have plenty of problems we can deal with on our domestic front w/o going a-conquering oversees to make discretionary enemies. and joe-mohammaed who's busy oppresing his harem wouldn't be our enemy if we weren't in his place, fucking w/ his shit (and do you expect me to believe that ancient bullshit that, in the big picture, we're over there to make his and his bitches lives better? that its all a big selfless enterprise?)

[akhalteke]

I lived on a sioux reservation working for IHS, so yes. Most of the misery in this country is self inflicted; including the Lakota.

[akhalteke]

Oh, and Joe Mohommad hated you before any service member ever touched his shitty fucking desert. Remember that.

[akhalteke]

Oh and hike through bum fuck appalachia... just did it all last week. Lovely people.

[mattp]

Righto. I used to head down to the hills in West Virginia and N. Carolina/Tennessee for caves and climbing over spring breaks and never had any kind of Deliverance moment. Quite the opposite.

 

Anyone else ever eat the wild green onions called "Ramps?" My in-laws from Kentucky never heard of 'em but when I was a young lad the locals down there would crawl through the woods filling gunny sacks with them in the Spring.

[mattp]

Meanwhile, I'll note that I've been watching this thread and so far I have not seen any real argument as to why we actually benefit from having the facility at Guantanimo and being known for torturing the bad guys. There's been some talk about how the bad guys really suck and our guys are underappreciated, but not really any discussion of exactly or even vaguely what it is that we've gained from having Gitmo.

 

I got one private message that there might be some tangential benefit in having that facility but it was really not very specific and you tough guys aren't even trying to say that we've gotten good intelligence from Gitmo or that the gains have been worth the PR losses, let alone even acknowledging the fact that it has been an embarrassment.

[ivan]

Oh, and Joe Mohommad hated you before any service member ever touched his shitty fucking desert. Remember that.

he may have hated us, but it was a vague, imprecise, unmotivated sort of hatred, the kind of hatred that could do us no harm

 

i don't miss apalachia much at all, or the ghettoes i taught in either - a far more capital place out here by far - i find i've had fewer guns pulled on me in the wilderness here

 

[ivan]

Meanwhile, I'll note that I've been watching this thread and so far I have not seen any real argument as to why we actually benefit from having the facility at Guantanimo and being known for torturing the bad guys. There's been some talk about how the bad guys really suck and our guys are underappreciated, but not really any discussion of exactly or even vaguely what it is that we've gained from having Gitmo.

 

I got one private message that there might be some tangential benefit in having that facility but it was really not very specific and you tough guys aren't even trying to say that we've gotten good intelligence from Gitmo or that the gains have been worth the PR losses, let alone even acknowledging the fact that it has been an embarrassment.

speaking of orwell, i think what benefit gitmo may have that they don't want to admit is that it helps further the death and destruction that tyranny needs to enrich and justify itself - remember in 1984? it didn't matter who the enemy was, or what the fight was about, just that war never stopped: "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

 

[pc313]

 

The truth about the USA in just a few pictures!!

 

ANY QUESTION?

[tvashtarkatena]

Feel free to expatriate to China anytime bud.

 

Actually, given your lack of respect for American values, our institutions, and the Constitution, I would think you'd be a better candidate, although Somalia or Sudan might suit you better. More freedom to 'pull out all the stops' there.

Edited March 16, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

I lived on a sioux reservation working for IHS, so yes. Most of the misery in this country is self inflicted; including the Lakota.

 

Most of the misery...today...after subjugation, depopulation and the reservation system.

 

Just a little detail, but then, you're not one for details.

[akhalteke]

Little thing I like to call personal responsibility. There are many Lakota Sioux that made lives for themselves. Their past and their current situations are not reasons for their misfortunes/poverty; their attitude are. The past is merely an excuse for apathy and ambivalence.

 

Almost every people on this earth were subjugated at one time or another from one nation or another. The difference is whether you use it as fuel for ambition or an excuse for ambivalence.

[tvashtarkatena]

AKA: Lakota spokesperson.

 

God I love this forum.

[akhalteke]

I never said I was. But if we are applying this moniker perhaps you would be the spokesmen for everything and anyone on Earth.

 

But since you have so much experience with the Lakota, why don't you tell me some examples of how drinking Lysol is a rational response to an event that happened a century ago.