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Retrosaurus

Dan's Dreadful Direct restored

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I haven't followed this topic but what I'm reading is a little weird. A person bolted an exsisting crack line (albeit dangerous), then a few guys who can't even climb the thing went and stripped it?

To much focus on one climb.

In business that's called leading with your chin.

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quote:

Originally posted by viktor:

...(rock) is the one who suffers. Sleep well my vigilante heroes.

The rock suffered when it was drilled, not when the bolts were removed. The route is now much nearer to its original condition.

And yes, that route is too hard for me. But that does not justify drilling and bolting.

If you are foolish enough to supply hangars for this type of retro-bolting/vandalism that's your fault.

The route restorers have stepped forward and taken credit for what they have done. Where are those "experienced, well-respected, PNW climbers" that had to drill holes beside cracks to CHOP the route down to their level? They still wish to remain nameless and faceless. Does this tell you any thing?

RETRO-BOLTING IS CHICKENSHIT.

Mitch

(And why don't you fix those topos for Castle Rock; they suck. )

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Thank you Mitch, Ray and Will for restoring Castle Rock . Someone has to draw the line. I am behind you 100%. I think most of the PNW climbing community is behind you too.

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Good work boys! Its irrelevent whether or not the choppers can lead DDD w/o bolts. Its the mystery, potential of failure, and awe that draw us to climbing. Just knowing that there are stout, intimidating routes out there is what motivates me to climb hard and train (boulder).

For those of us who aspire to climb routes like DDD, it makes us stronger people and climbers when routes like DDD are left in their original condition. And Lambone, safety is relative.

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speaking of the history of the route (which seems to be ignored)are you planning to fully restore the route with its original pitons or is modern protection adequate?

In all honesty, I do admire your ethical standards. I just think your actions are extreme and feeling "warm and fuzzy" about it makes me ill.

And if you have any input for topos or whatever, "they suck" doesn't help.

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Retro et al,

You know where I'm at on this. You've done the community a true service, and you don't have to apologize for your self-satisfaction. CHOPPING IS THE ANSWER. Otherwise, with retro-bolters surveying only a sympathetic sample of climbers prior to their culpable acts, and when they remain anonymous after the fact, and when they fail to respect the tradition of one of Washington's last, great natural cliffs.....there can be no other response. Without the response to this particular retro-bolting project, Castle Rock would have been seen as wide-open to futute route engineering, and I think we'd all lose.

I know the guys who did the project, and they really do have vast experience and good intentions. That they don't see it the same way as those of us opposed to their project is unfortunate, but they are otherwise level-headed, rational guys who will hopefully let the issue drop.

Victor, I can appreciate that you'd like to see Leavenworth climbers approaching these issues a little harmoniously, but as I said before, many people are PISSED about the amount of iron being screwed into Leavenworth granite. I'd still like to know how you came up with the notion that Jim Yoder approved the retro-bolting of The Edge of Wart Wall? He told me a week ago that he was unaware that the route had been "improved".

Imabone: Do you think you'll be able to find any other bolts to clip?

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I was thinking the person that should chop the bolts should also be the person to lead the route on gear/original state. If your not strong enough to lead the route, then maybe chopping them is out of the question. I think the above scenario would serve justice to the statement of chopping the route. Since the act is already completed, all I got to say is good job guys. Hopefully the rock looks good and this subject will fall into obscurity.

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I've climbed with several of the choppers, and with one person who's led this route clean on gear. I respect all of them both as climbers and as people.

Even with all the loyalty to my friends to contend with I felt I had to REALLY dig deep and think about this issue without blindly taking sides.

I have my ideas who the rap bolters are, and if they are who I think they are, I respect them as climbers even if I do not agree with this act. In short, I do not want to lay a blanket over them or their ethics and throw down the gauntlet against them. It's not about "us & them". It's about the greater good for everyone. Maybe they felt as keenly as the choppers do that they were providing a service for the majority. However, I believe the majority were not in agreement in supporting the rap bolters case.

I do believe they took a concensus among what they consider to be an experienced and long standing peer group long known to establish and repeat routes of quality in the Cascades. I do not believe they took into consideration climbers such as myself that still aspire to meet the challenge head on that this route represents. It was perhaps a oversight on their part, but we all make mistakes from time to time don't we?

I think the majority of climbers respect and even need a route out there like DDD was prior to bolting. I know I do. I suspect I will never be able to lead this route in it's now unbolted form, but I'm OK with that. It's enough to know it's out there waiting should I ever choose to rise to it's level.

If they want to come forward I would encourage it. It would certainly do much to heal this rift that has been created. From me at least you won't receive any judgements, but a willingness to hear your side and weigh your opinions for future efforts to create new lines for the future of the sport.

I support the removal of the bolts on Castle Rock and support Ray, Mitch, and Will's efforts. Thanks to all of you.

Now hopefully we can all get back to the business of enjoying the beauty of the mountains, our climbing partners, and challenging ourselves at our respective levels.

Mike Adamson

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Here is a suggestion for your consideration as a part of the local climbing community.

We need guys like Retro, Will and Caveman in order to be "a self regulating body" and put some limitations on bolting or "the man" will do it for us. Just imagine getting a permit to place some bolts for a belay station. "ok mr. climber that will be 30 days for planning review, 30 for structural..."

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quote:

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Viktor I plan to work the route until able to lead it with preplaced pro actually. I am possibly going to cancel my planned trip to Canada to put up a new route with Dru. I am pretty positive I can get enough gear preplaced to lead it without the bolts and most likely without the pitons. Maybe I will send you a photo of me taking a whipper on it to put in your guidebook or something.

-CPT

Preplaced gear? Is that ethical? My point is everybody has their own opinion on what is ethical. My beef is not really so much the chopping of the route as much as someone forcing their ethics on others. For chrissakes if your going to chop a route or something similarly provocotive you might do an ego check to see why you're really doing it. To get backslaps from the homeys or because you genuinely feel you're doing a service to humanity. I would think if I felt I were performing a service I would not need to chest pound so much. We look like a bunch of f(*&cking boobs arguing about this.

 

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I applaud the removal of the DDD bolts and from what I can gather from the assorted comments, the fellows involved are interested in doing a good job of it, that is, a restoration rather than a mere hacking. At the bottom of this issue is the matter of ideals. Would you like to leave relatively pristine crags for future generations? Or would you prefer to permanently deface the rock to satisfy your ego in the present? (or lack of desire/ability to lead a challenging route cleanly in this case). This act sends a statement that should cause us to think before bolting a) traditional routes on traditional crags b) bolting anywhere else. If you don't want to lead cleanly at Castle or anywhere else, top-rope it. And if you fall, you're dangling anyway, just like a lead on a sport climb.

When I started climbing (1973), every bolt drilled was a major ethical decision because we were fully aware of the permanence of the act. It was also the time of the clean-climbing revolution, where pitons and bolts were being shuffled out in preference for gear that would not damage the rock. (See the essays in the Chouinard catalogs of that era for some truly progressive thinking.) With the coming of sport climbing to our shores, this sort of important environmental ethic has seemingly gone to the wayside, and so many new climbers are acustomed to thinking that bolting wherever, whenever is the acceptable norm. (The guys who bolted DDD should have known better.)

I don't have any hot tips on how to fill holes with granite dust or whatever, but methods of restoration would be a worthy subject of investigation.

My only complaint is that they damaged the hangars which I think should have been returned to the owners to emphasize the point that this isn't hacking, vandalism, or theft but an ethical and environmental statement.

Sincerely, Dwayner

P.S. Good job, guys, but a little quiet dignity in the aftermath would keep the spray-monkeys more at bay, and would also reinforce the notion that you are making a serious statement.

Also: Quit bitching about the price of the crowbar, it cheapens the issue. I'll gladly reimburse you if that's a real problem.

[This message has been edited by Dwayner (edited 07-20-2001).]

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If the person to chop the bolts has to be accomplished enough to do so while on lead, is this because the person who installed the bolts also did so on lead?

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Never seen the route in question, but if it is as described it should never have been bolted.

In terms of the bolters, what reason do they have for comming forward? To listen to a bunch of ranting and critical comments? They made a mistake, all is well now. However, it seems like the choppers where driven by something else other than the notion of preserving the rock. All this talk about posting pictures of the chopping and continuous bragging is hard to listen to. Most of us agree the bolts should not have been placed, but how much praise do you need for chopping them?

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quote:

Originally posted by Yossarian:

All this talk about posting pictures of the chopping and continuous bragging is hard to listen to. Most of us agree the bolts should not have been placed, but how much praise do you need for chopping them?

I think it is important for the PNW climbing community to discuss important issues related to climbing in an open forum so that consensus can be found and agreed upon. This is democracy. We are Americans.

The issue at hand is the protection (no pun intended) of our limited natural resources. This web site provides an ideal forum where policy can be debated intelligently by experienced climbers as well as give new climbers a chance to learn about the issues.

It is not a given that someone who learned how to climb in a climbing gym would necessarily think retro-bolting is wrong. Likewise, if such climber went to Little Si, Exit 38, and Vantage he or she might think it is acceptable to indiscriminately drill bolts to make any line safe. Look at what climbers have done at Fossil Rock. It is only acceptable because FR is a random choss heap in the middle of nowhere. On the other hand, the climbing around Leavenworth is simply amazing. Castle Rock is a treasure and should be protected.

I hope new climbers reading this thread will learn it's not okay to deface rock in Washington State. It's not okay to add permanent fixtures to our wilderness without first finding concensus and approval from the community. We must respect other climbers' wishes.

 

Let's make this a thought provoking discussion and not a mud slinging contest.

[This message has been edited by Matt (edited 07-20-2001).]

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I dont understand why the hell we can not sit down as a climbing community and talk about what our ethics should be. I dont agree with bolting existing lines. I also dont agree with the establishment of washington pass as a sport climbing area(which it is in danger of becomming if the Phantom Bolters continue to slap bolts up on every peice of clean rock up there). Would it be too much to ask to discuss these ethics with the people who are doing this bolting? Is this not what we have the Access Fund for? It seems to me that the Access fund should be an organisational tool so that the climbers of Washington can sit down and discuss whether we are realy looking at the big picture when we bolt everything. Several of us know who the people responsible for this bolting are, and I have not seen them reply to a single post here, therfore it is clearly nessessary for us to arrange a time that we can sit down and have a reasnable disscussion with these people and exchange ideas and opinions. I am very worried that people are slapping up bolted routes for the sole purpose of getting there name in a guide book, and I think this is wrong. Does anyone know how to contact these people so that we can have a reasoble discussion? Should we get the access fund involved in this dusscussion?

If we do not start some kind of disscussion now we stand to loose our rights as climbers from agencys such as the Forrest service who realy dont understand the real issues involved.

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quote:

Originally posted by Alasdair:

I dont understand why the hell we can not sit down as a climbing community and talk about what our ethics should be.

This is just what is now happenning. The fact that the retro-bolters have chosen to not take part can only be attributed to one thing:

THEY ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR UNJUSTIFIABLE ACT.

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Guest

I too agree that more dialog will only help. Let's drop the ego and put the "strong" and "well-respected" aside (which will only increase the respect). Let's hear from new route creators as to what motivates them, especially when creating bolted lines. I recently found two new bolted routes right next to a well-known bolted classic at Leavenworth. And they are not bolted in the same spirit but much more generously, especially the leftmost 5.9. I did clip every bolt but would climb the route with less as well.

I undestand the notion that "one cannot ask everybody". So nobody asked Mitch and co and they didn't ask e v e r y b o d y. And if the bolts are up again we have a bolt war at hand in which we all loose. I am sure it is possible to get a larger group's opinion if enough ego is supressed. Climb all the time or don't have a computer? I am sure there are ways, there are people on this site knowing others. Victor Kramar can certainly contact DDD bolters and most likely Condor bolters, etc. I for example would definitely like to know why the new bolting standard is more generous for example. Just an honest dialog, what's the hurry to set up a new climb?

And please, let's not automatically give absolution, no matter how strong the climber is. Or well-respected for that matter.

I think that talk about the legacy and ethics is very relevant and important, especially when climbing literally exploded in its popularity.

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Who has tried to contact them? Who are they? I have a pretty good idea who is responsible for much of it, but I am not willing to post their names untill I know for sure. If they are not reading these threds then we are having a onesided discussion that does not help the situation. Can anyone help us identify who the bolters are? After we identify who they are we should disscuss the issues with them in a level headed way, and not confront them as bitter crusty old climbers.

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quote:

Originally posted by Alasdair:

After we identify who they are we should disscuss the issues with them in a level headed way, and not confront them as bitter crusty old climbers.

I am fully prepared to discuss the issues in a level-headed way; but I am a bitter, crusty old climber.

Just as I feel warm and fuzzy restoring a rock to its original condition, Rap Bolters feel all warm and fuzzy looking up and seeing "their" new shiny ribbon of stainless steel. Am I getting warm, Victor? Are you feeling ill?

[This message has been edited by Retrosaurus (edited 07-20-2001).]

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Caveman said something I agree with! Well said caveman. I think you managed to write a post that didn't insult anyone and probably wont piss anyone off. Keep it up.

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My two cents: You should have left the bolts alone. If you don't like them don't clip them. With all the posturing you've lost sight of that basic premise. I'm with Victor, the rock is the loser in the end.

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