Experience with twin ropes?

[jesselillis]

If you know of a prior thread that addressed this and can direct me, I would appreciate it.

 

Now that there are twin ropes also rated as doubles, I'm considering getting a pair (of 7.8mm twin ropes), for long rappels, sharing the load on long approaches, better for resuce setups, etc.

 

But I was wondering what others who have actually used them think. I've had some ugly snarls with my (8.4mm) doubles while belaying (this may just be a matter of personal rope management). I'm also wondering if 7.8mm is much more likely to get caught when pulling the ropes after rappeling on less than vertical (most alpine) climbs.

 

Any thoughts/experiences appreciated.

Thanks

[chris]

I won't say that 7.8mm is more likely to get caught, but pulling a 60m rappel is. My experience is that 60m rappels are for clean raps with low likelihood of snags. Consider using a single rope and making 30m raps instead.

[alps]

I agree insofar as I'd recommend to make single rope rappels when possible because they are way less likely to cause trouble. But that's not always an option. And being able to rappel the full rope length sure is nice in case of a retreat.

 

Can't say much about the original question, though. My doubles are around 8.4mm. But I don't know why thinner ones should get caught more easily.

[G-spotter]

lighter ropes = less mass, higher proportional surface area. not quite sure if this leads to increased rope-on-rope friction or what exactly.

 

on any diameter of rope, tangles can be avoided through proper management tricks.

[tomtom]

lighter ropes = less mass, higher proportional surface area. not quite sure if this leads to increased rope-on-rope friction or what exactly.

It leads to getting blown around more in the wind.

[G-spotter]

What proportion of all rappel tangles occur on non-windy days?

[John Frieh]

Hey Jesse: you already have a set of doubles? If so why are you thinking about a pair of twins? Only because of the rope cluster issue?

 

Until recently I've always climbed ice on 8.1 doubles and really liked it but yes one must stay vigilant with rope management or you will see a cluster (I still get one time to time). Recently I've been leading on a single 9.1 and keeping an 8.1 in the followers pack in case we need to bail.

[jesselillis]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Reduction in weight and volume were large motivators- though maybe I am overestimating the worth (especially if I am not going to cut the number of raps in half).

 

20% reduction in weight, 16% reduction in volume between 8.5mm and 7.8mm?

 

Lugging the 8.7lb 10.2mm for 10 miles sucks, but doesn't quite seem to suck as much as 2 people lugging a 6.3lb 8.5mm each. It miiiight suck more than 2 people lugging a 5.0lb 7.8mm each.

 

8.1mm sounds huge as a bail tag/rap line. If it's just for rappeling, why not use 6mm static cord with your 9.1?

[goatboy]

I won't say that 7.8mm is more likely to get caught, but pulling a 60m rappel is. My experience is that 60m rappels are for clean raps with low likelihood of snags. Consider using a single rope and making 30m raps instead.

 

Word.

[John Frieh]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Reduction in weight and volume were large motivators- though maybe I am overestimating the worth (especially if I am not going to cut the number of raps in half).

 

20% reduction in weight, 16% reduction in volume between 8.5mm and 7.8mm?

 

Lugging the 8.7lb 10.2mm for 10 miles sucks, but doesn't quite seem to suck as much as 2 people lugging a 6.3lb 8.5mm each. It miiiight suck more than 2 people lugging a 5.0lb 7.8mm each.

 

8.1mm sounds huge as a bail tag/rap line. If it's just for rappeling, why not use 6mm static cord with your 9.1?

 

If I had more disposable income I would climb on 7.7 mm doubles but unless it is a pure ice route (rare around here especially if you chase the alpine) you ropes are going to die quickly... dragging them around corners, through flakes, etc etc To me 8.1 is a good compromise between weight savings and durability. I'm sure others will disagree with me

 

Why I roll with an 8.1 tag line is if the lead rope takes a hit/damage I can still lead on the 8.1 double in a pinch. I do have a 6mm tag line I take on routes that I am confident potential damage to the lead rope is low.

 

30 m raps are great if you dont have to worry about objective hazards from above but again: lots of alpine routes merit quick ascent and descent. I did 10 or so raps down GCC on Kitchener last weekend with 2 70 m ropes... doing 20 under the cornice sounds dumb + I would have likely had to leave 2x as much rap tat (i.e. my slings).

 

If you dont want the second to have to follow with the tag line just trail it or if it is a sketchy pitch clip it as a double... most of the skinny ropes on the market are rated as a double also (I climb on a joker).

[jmace]

I climb on 7.5 twins in the alpine and love it, especially in the pack. On easy climbs I bring one and fold it in half for a hard pitch or two. On snow couloirs I just bring it alone.

 

There is no difference in rappel tangles between my 7.5 twins and my 8.5 doubles

 

 

[montypiton]

I've climbed on twins almost exclusively since the mid-eighties, and find the versatility of the system hard to beat. Yeah, sometimes I'll just carry one and double it over, but I usually carry both. I think you'll find the cluster factor will resolve itself with some practice -- I can remember (rather not say how many years ago)some pretty nasty clusters with single-rope belays when I was first learning. Like single ropes, twins have gotten thinner over the years - I don't really notice much difference in the handling, other than the lack of weight (bonus) and needing to update belay devices occasionally (probably a good thing, too).

[Spiral_Out]

Speaking of tag lines- do you use a small diameter static line or cord? I've heard that if there is stretch it causes issues when feeding through a device.

[Sherri]

Lately, I've been leading on a friend's twins for longer multi's and am sold on their merits. Great to have two ropes for rappells without the hassle of packing or trailing a tag line. Had a little trouble w/snarls at belays(my fault, I don't doubt) but overall it seems like a great system for climbs where weight and having two ropes handy has been a priortity.

 

I just purchased a pair of PMI Verglas 8.1 which are rated as both twins and doubles. Looking forward to trying it out on Cookie Monster tomorrow (in Red Rock).

[Sherri]

Update after first use: LOVE them.

 

These babies were a dream to pack in(so light!) and performed flawlessly(smooth and tangle free). It was great to have the option to use twin or double rope technique--and even to be able to switch between the two techniques on the same route. Wish I had gotten these a lot sooner!

 

I expected to be battling snarled piles of rope spaghetti being that this was their first climb, but was pleasantly surprised at the ease of managing these ropes. Maybe it's important to note that I was meticulous about following the mfrs. directions for properly uncoiling them out of the box and followed up the uncoiling with several rounds of flaking them to the floor from our second floor loft so that the "pigtails" and kinks could easily spin out the ends. Took about an hour but it was time well spent, I'd say, judging by how relaxed the ropes felt despite being brand new.

 

Can't wait to take them on their next outing this weekend...

[catbirdseat]

Good point, Sherri. Who was it? Stefan? He mentioned some time ago how important it is to get all twists out of your new ropes before you use them. He said the putting weight or a fall on a rope with a twist can set "twistiness" into the rope permanently.

 

I think that a lot of the troubles that climbers have with their rappel ropes actually result from using twisted ropes, or rappelling in such a way that twist are put into a rope that started out twist free. There are ways of using your rappel device incorrectly both belaying and rappelling that puts twists in. This has been mentioned by both ChucK and Off White I believe.

[Sherri]

Thanks, CBS. I'm sure I read it somewhere here, too. I figured the stakes were high enough with skinnies to take the advice to heart. And it paid off.

[Reilly]

Hello kiddies,

Back in the day I wouldn't consider going on a serious alpine route without my double nines. Now you're talking 7 point what? I guess I've had too many ropes nearly chopped to be able to fathom that!

 

Old and no longer bold, not that I ever was,

Reilly

 

[billcoe]

Hello kiddies,

Back in the day I wouldn't consider going on a serious alpine route without my double nines. Now you're talking 7 point what? I guess I've had too many ropes nearly chopped to be able to fathom that!

 

Old and no longer bold, not that I ever was,

Reilly

 

Metolius makes 7.8 doubles now that probably are stronger (UIAA fall rating) than what you used back in the day. With 2 - you are less likely to be screwed via chopping them both (I bet it's happened sometime someplace), so since chopping them both (or even one)is so rare, might as well go light! I find that the weight reduction as I get older (54 now), is a blessing. Think of carrying a rack of old heavy (non-wiregate) Eiger Ovals up some alpine route compared to a Nano or some other sickly light biner!

 

As far as getting them stuck and tangled, you will, sadly, and that's the trade off. Like Drew says, careful rope management helps.