Lat Pulls vs. pullups

[Courtenay]

'kay gang, It's time to break "ice climbing" into components.

Let me try to explain a little more carefully why I feel chinups and pullups do more for the rock and ice climber than lat pulls DEPENDING ON HOW THEY'RE DONE. I'd also insert that if you can't do pullups, but you have the choice between Gravitron or weight-assisted machine and the lat pull downs, go with the Gravitron.

Why? Doing pullups, chinups or the Gravitron requires that you pull your body up rather than pulling something (bar, handle, etc) down to you. It requires the use of abdominals, shoulders, lats, biceps and muscles in the forearms. However, many people performing lat pull downs will brace legs under a knee pad, hence recruiting hip flexors and quads (and other smaller muscles involved in hip flexion) in addition to the muscles above. If you must work with the lat pull down, and your goal is to get as much transferrable strength to climbing, THEN get on your knees with feet behind you (much like the position you'd be in for Gravitron or pullups/chinups) and perform them that way.

As for whether or not pullups help with ice and rock climbing, I'll say until my face turns blue (or until the cows come home -- whoh was talking about cow tipping on that last thread?? ) that the best training for climbing is climbing, BUT apart from that, IF you can in fact do pullups, they will never HURT your climbing in any way UNLESS you neglect taking the time to learn any technique and rely forever on your brute strength.

While I agree that in many cases with rock and ice climbing you're NOT doing a pullup, in the event that you need to be able to pull over an edge, or are on something slightly overhung that causes you to keep popping off, you can bet your life that I'd want to be able to do several pullups if only to have the lat and arm endurance to make several attempts at topping out without expending any extra energy worrying that I didn't have the upper body strength needed! Hope this helps people understand where those of us who are pro-pullups are coming from.

[texplorer]

One other good way to practice pull ups is to use the wall in front of you. You can screw in really small jibs and push off of them with one foot.

[AJ]

I just read Chris Wall's training article in the latest Rock & Ice (#113). He makes some points about doing levers instead of pull-ups. Any thoughts on whether or not that really helps?

[sexual_chocolate]

I don't know how he proposes doing a lever, but they are HARD! I think incorporating texplorer's idea of little jibs into a pull-up routine is a good one. Have a jib out in front, maybe waist-high, that you can barely reach with your toe, and then do pull-ups while keeping a toe on the jib. Trains core strength with pull-up strength, which is what so much of harder steeper climbing is all about. I've done this before, and I noticed an effect after a few weeks of concerted effort.

[DPS]

How often do you suggest doing pullups? Everyday? Every other day? Currently I do two weight lifting workouts a week, (pullups, bench press, triceps extensions, wrist curls, biceps curls, hamstring curl, leg press, leg extension.) Should I be doing pullups on the off days as well?(On the off days I do staremaster, situps, trailrunning, climbing, etc)

[Figger_Eight]

Do pullups till the cows come home...then you can start doing calf raises.

[Drederek]

I usually stare at the missuses not the masters! But seriously if you're not hurting yourself you're probably not overtraining. Whether or not twice a week is close to that point depends on lots of factors. I try not to train the same muscle groups on consecutive days. Except on a road trip!

[DCramer]

Lots of good tips on training in this thread. I think the best workout is the one that keeps you coming back for more. If it's not fun I won't do it. If I don't do it they don't work. I find that when I worked out I would tend to cycle thru different regimens. Not driven by some workout theory but rather boredom. One arm pulls are something of a trick that from my experience have very little impact on climbing and have a high probability of causing injury. Training for levers also can be injurious. If you are seriously training for these guys I would also add in some general shoulder type stuff as well and go slow!

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey Haireball, I think there might be some truth to what I've heard regarding one-arms: some people are structured differently. I don't know? Maybe? How close are you now? How many are you doing with the 35 lbs? Single arm on the lat machine seemed to help me a lot, but I don't think I still can do a one-arm from complete complete extension. If I bend my arm just a few degrees I can do one, but from total extension, something seems to bind in my shoulder in a strange way....Taller people seem to have a harder time with one-arms....

[Dru]

Has anybody done a lat pull or a pull up in Puyallup (or however you spell it?)

Courtenay, what about "typewriters" (pull up, lock off, shift back and forth between locked off arms, release, repeat). I have heard they are a better exercise for climbing than just sets of pull ups.

Also, what about doing pullups on dowels hung from a pull up bar so the hands are in the same position as they would be when ice climbing. would that help?

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Courtenay:

'kay guys, can we keep this area clean, please?

---

What about those typewriters and dowel pullups then? do they work or not?

[freeclimb9]

The typewriter exercise is demonstrably bad for your shoulder sockets (thank the fools in Boulder for that research). Using dowels torques your wrists into positions that exacerbate tendon swelling and carpal tunnel syndrome (just like ice climbing, but some things should be used in moderation unlike sex and beer). IMHO, a balanced weight program plus aerobic bullshit is the way to go. It always seems that the uphill approach through pecker-deep snow is the hardest part of ice-climbing anyways. Then there's the side benefit of reduced risk of injury and the superfly babes at the gym gasping in lust at your manly muscles (and not those freakish forearm ones that suggest pastimes not in line with anything but autosexual proclivities.) word.

[nolanr]

Sorry Courtenay, they have entered your domain and now they probably won't give it back. Our 2 favorite spraymeisters haven't met a topic yet they couldn't get off track. Anyway, I think any exercise where you're moving your body weight around is probably good and more closely resembles what you'd actually be doing in a sport, including climbing.

[epb]

I was just wondering who here can do a one arm? I can do 20 and some odd pull ups and even more chin ups, but can barely hold my body weight with one arm. How many pullups are the kids out there doing with two arms that can pull off a one arm?

[haireball]

two notes:

I'm definitely sold on counter-balance pullup devices (machines) over lat-pull apparati --for all the reasons Courteny enumerated above. In my experience, the assisted pullup move yields far better results.

how often? varies from person to person and depends largely on your personal recovery requirements. traditional "bodybuilding" wisdom is 48 hours rest after you work a muscle to failure, before you work it again. the professional trainers I've spoken with say that if you're gaining consistently, you're fine. when you get to the point where you go several workouts of a move without being able to add repetitions in a set, or add resistance, or add another set without lengthening your workout ( meaning you're reducing your rest periods between sets) then its time to switch routines, and possibly think about increasing recovery days between workouts.

I do pullups once weekly - pyramids of eight sets with (currently) bodyweight +35lbs on the heaviest sets. my goal, which I am nowhere near at this point, is to some day do a one-arm pullup. If I can increase my strength as much in the next thirty years as I have in the past thirty, I will achieve this goal the year I turn 80...

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: haireball ]

[sexual_chocolate]

And remember: this comes from a man who can't... do... a ohmygawd single...hahahaa...one-armed pull-up! Buahahahahahahaha!!!!!! After 36 years of trying! Buahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!!

But seriously, his advice sounds good. I do pull-ups twice a week, hard sets though, and I've been improving a lot lately. But I just started adding another day 'cause my body can handle it.

[DCramer]

When I could do a one arm I am not sure how many regular pull ups I could do. I am sure that it is less than the number of pull ups I could do when I was trying to do lots of those. The most effective training for one arms is not regular pull ups. One arms are evil!

[sexual_chocolate]

I've done a one-arm with each arm, from a couple degree bend in the elbow. My pull-up rep max is now about thirty, but was only about twenty-five when I did them.

[jon]

Hey this is/was a good discussion. I've got two things to suggest.

Have those of you doing lat pulls tried mixing in negatives. I usually do these really slowely and get a good burn going. I'll do about 10-15 reps and then try to do about 2-3 negatives at the end of each set.

The other thing which is more of a general lifting statement involves the speed in which you do your reps. I read an article about how researchers took two college football teams and had them do identical lifting routines except one of the teams focused on doing their reps with a high level of explosiveness, accelerating through the repetition. I guess this group had significantly greater improvements not only in strength but in running speed. Not really surprising but something to think about and maybe try. Courteney did you hear about that study?

[Dru]

I liked the recent study that found a 13% increase in muscle strength vs. a control group when simply Visualizing exercise. Thinking Hard!

[Courtenay]

Dan wrote:<< How often do you suggest doing pullups? Everyday? Every other day? Currently I do two weight lifting workouts a week, (pullups, bench press, triceps extensions, wrist curls, biceps curls, hamstring curl, leg press, leg extension.) Should I be doing pullups on the off days as well?(On the off days I do staremaster, situps, trailrunning, climbing, etc) >>

I'd suggest if you're climbing twice a week, add one day of pullups work; if you're climbing once a week, you can do pullups twice a week. I'd also suggest you put in one "endurance" day (as many pullups, or bodyweight-assisted pulls as you can stand) and one "strength" day -- weighted pulls, lock-offs, etc. that are in the 3-6 reps range. Just be attentive to what your body can tolerate. Those individuals used to a high level of work (climbing 5 days a week) might be able to get by with 3-4 days of climbing and 2 of pullups plus, but in general, for anyone who is more casual about training, shoot for 3 "pulling" workouts in a week and no more, or you may set yourself up for finger/elbow tendonitis issues.

[Courtenay]

Dru wrote:

<< what about "typewriters" (pull up, lock off, shift back and forth between locked off arms, release, repeat). I have heard they are a better exercise for climbing than just sets of pull ups.

Also, what about doing pullups on dowels hung from a pull up bar so the hands are in the same position as they would be when ice climbing. would that help? >>

Definitely, pullups from dowels would help for pulling strength for ice climbing; palms forward pullups with different width grips will work really well for rock climbing; one-arm lat pulls (if you can't do one arm pullups!!) can also help you detect whether one arm is doing more of the work. Sounds like to me typewriters are more of an isometric-type training exercise; I'm sure they're an interesting variety, though I try to encourage people to work the muscles through as much range of motion as possible, rathern than overloading one position for too long. Hope this helps.

[Courtenay]

Jon wrote:

<< Have those of you doing lat pulls tried mixing in negatives? I usually do these really slowly and get a good burn going. I'll do about 10-15 reps and then try to do about 2-3 negatives at the end of each set. >>

Another idea: 1/4 paused drops -- meaning once you can no longer do a positive (pulling part of the repetition) drop 1/4 of the way down and hang there, still, for 2-4 seconds; lower another 1/4 so you're half way down, pause 2-4 seconds; lower to 3/4, pause, then all the way down. Taxing, only do on the last repetition of the last set. You should be able to add a pullup or two the next time you do pullups, IF you've had adequate rest. If at any point you CAN'T equal your previous workouts' attempts, TAKE A BREAK, your nervous system may need more recovery time.

[Courtenay]

Jon asked:

<< I read an article about how researchers took two college football teams and had them do identical lifting routines except one of the teams focused on doing their reps with a high level of explosiveness, accelerating through the repetition. I guess this group had significantly greater improvements not only in strength but in running speed. >>

Actually, a number of studies show that to be powerful, you'd benefit from powerful, explosive lifting as in the case of Olympic-style lifters, sprinters, etc. who train with cleans, snatches, hang pulls and the like. If you train slowly (as Superslow proponents do) you will BE slow. Hence those people who want to be really dynamic on the wall might include jumps to holds (dynos, but in training, not just on a route) in order to get tendons and ligaments prepared for such movements. CAUTION: very tough on joints -- do NOT attempt unless you have a high level of conditioning and climbing skill!

But as to training with more "oomph", try it out -- on a bench press, for example, or pullup, compare the exertion of a 3 second lift to one that takes a second -- the muscles have to contract much more forcefully to get you up in a second than in three. Another "but": if you are training for ENDURANCE, not so much POWER, keep reps slow and steady, as that increases the time under tension (i.e. lengthens the set.)

[texplorer]

Dan,I agree with Courtney but just to add a little more. I would start with three days a week after your hardest climbing sessions doing a lat pull workout. Do three sets of 40 reps for 2-4 weeks. After that drop down to 8-12 reps at a higher weight for a week or two and start doing pull-ups. Finally, start changing your workouts up. After six weeks start splitting your workouts up into "power" days and "endurance" days. If you can already do 3 sets of 8 or more pull ups then you can skip the lat PD's.

Finally, I have found the "typewriters" excellent for climbing. They are an advanced exercise however and you want to make sure your back is really strong. Make sure you do them slow and in control.