Crossfit and Sport Specific Training???

[ken4ord]

So I have been doing a bit of reading up on this whole crossfit and just wondering how you guys that are doing this working it into climbing and other sports? Currently I go for an hour run once a week and do two mountain bike ride, I don't really want crossfit to get in the way of my outside activities.

 

How have you been working crossfit into climbing/ climbing training and other activities like the cycling? In other words how have you kept or intergrated bouldering and gym climbing in with crossfit? Likewise for cycling.

 

Also I don't have access to crossfit gym so I will be doing it on my own, I was thinking of following along one week behind one the gyms workout. Any of you have experience doing this? How many days do you guys or gals do a week and what type of workout (endurance/strength)? Some of the excercises listed I am not familar with are there places that describe each particular exercise and proper and improper form? Mountain athlete and Gym Jones seem to have great list for workouts but no information on what they actually are.

Thanks for any help that any of you can provide.

[Chad_A]

I've been thinking about this more and more lately, and it's lead me to take crossfit and put it on the backburner (or to do it as a backup when I don't have time to get to the gym or climb outside, or crappy weather like today). But there's a personal reason behind this; I'll get to that later.

 

Here's a great email to MtnAthlete (GymJones style facility in Jackson, WY) from Kelly Cordes. You can click here http://mtnathlete.com/id163.html to read it, or:

 

I received the following e-mail from Kelley Cordes, a freelance writer and world class mountaineer from Estes Park, Colorado. My response/comments follow Kelley's.:

 

KELLY'S COMMENTS:

 

I'm pretty serious about my climbing and training, with my goals focused primarily on alpine climbing. Anyway, thanks for the alpinist.com article and for all the info on your site, and for making the info public – I’ve learned a ton from reading your workout log. Here in Estes we have a little garage gym (mostly it's a bouldering gym, but with some floor space; it's called Rod's Gym, after the guy who used to own it, Rod Willard. Rod's dead now, but the current owners are generous people who still let us use it), and some others and I have contributed equipment and made it a decent little facility – ya don't need much, really. I hardly ever see anyone else there, and so I usually train alone, which, though lacking things like external motivation and camaraderie, also comes with its own benefits - you can't fake it so well if there's nobody around to try to convince.

 

Anyway, surely you're super busy and you probably get plenty of random emails from folks like me, so I fully understand if you don't get around to reading my rambly musings below or writing a reply. No problem.

 

I've always been super interested in training, and did both my B.S. and M.S. in Exercise Physiology (at Penn State and Univ of MT, respectively). Seems forever ago, but I was CSCS certified, as I see you are, and ACSM certified, and taught at the Univ of MT for a couple of years on a visiting faculty appointment, then for a bit at a couple of community colleges. Much of that stuff has since drifted to the attic of my brain, but sometimes I dust it off and find myself babbling about cellular training adaptations and wondering where in the hell it came from. I';m not at all current with my knowledge, it's been probably 10 years since I taught it or studied it extensively, though I seem to have retained enough of the basics to understand the literature and so forth. Mostly I just like it, and use if to guide myself through my training. These days I make my living as a freelance writer and also as one of the editors of the American Alpine Journal (that's how I know Beckwith - he hired me to be his assistant during the last year of his editorship there).

 

Twight got me into these sorts of CrossFit-hybrid-circuit routines several years ago - I seem to remember CF being more high-intensity circuit based then, and maybe a bit more powerlifter oriented now. Not sure. Personally, I almost always do circuit-style workouts; I don't do much pure lifting, though I probably should add some of that. Anyway, Mark took me through a workout at his gym in SLC. Good stuff, and I've been into it ever since (off and on, depending on how seriously I'm training; it varies throughout the year for me). I pay attention to the CrossFit site some, have spent lots of reading time there over the years; likewise with gymjones and with your site. I like the feel of your site - great vibe, no bullshit yet no over-the-top macho stuff either (which is really just another form of bullshit). I'm always wary of the Kool-Aid thing, and though things like CrossFit have greatly influenced people's lives in a positive way, as obvious by skimming the "comments" under any given WOD, sometimes I think some of the participants go a little overboard - ya'd sometimes think that founders/participants of these sorts of routines believe that all you have to do is these workouts, and then you could do anything and everything at a top level, without any specific sport training. I disagree with that notion, and, as such, also appreciated your noting the limitations and lessons learned in your article. Good stuff, for sure.

 

Anyway, where was I? The honesty of your article, in noting limitations and that it's not for everyone, reflects well on you and only adds to your credibility. I'm impressed by your devotion to the discipline, and for making it happen with Mountain Athlete. Seems apparent that you're dedicated to learning and improving, which, at least as far as I can tell, is important for anything in life (but too often ignored). Again, nice going there. Your example with Brian Harder, the ski mountaineer, reminds me of how I've thought of these training sessions: they're a supplement to my climbing, not a substitute. It's like a compliment to my time outdoors, and if I have time/energy for one and not the other, I go climbing - not to downplay the importance of gym training. One of the wonderful things about these workouts is the time efficiency, which allows them to be a very reasonable supplement in terms of practicality. In terms of time investment and return benefit, I think it's hard to beat.

 

Seems like one's goals (as with any training program) relate to the relevancy of this type of training. No surprise that Eric Horst doesn't believe in anything not rock-climbing-specific. Wouldn't seem that important for a high-end rock climber to do this sort of training. (I know of some phenomenal, world-class boulderers who literally can't keep a good pace running around the block or hiking up hill - but they never need to do that anyway, so no worries for them.) The total body efforts required for climbing or skiing in the mountains, well, that's an entirely different beast requiring a different type of training. Certainly the type of climbing/activity a person does will affect the type of training they should do.

 

BTW, you noted the lack of climbing specific/grip exercises. One thing I've done a little bit of is mixing in Tabata intervals on the climbing wall. Both with regular rock holds and dry-tooling, on a short overhanging wall. Good stuff, I thought. I've included this in the 4x Tabata sessions (so, 16 minutes) I often do. I like doing the climbing Tabata intervals right after a metabolic interval set (like the Air-Dyne, or burpees; maybe I'll go: AD, climb, burpees, climb), likening it to alpine climbs where you're moving fast up easy ground, and then come to a steeper, cruxish section and keep climbing through.

 

One devil's advocate thing with stuff like the Exum guides and high-end people you train: these guys are already badass. Does this training additionally help someone like Nat P, who already rips, etc? Hard to say, I supposed, but anecdotal evidence points to a benefit, with participants saying they feel better.

 

I used to come from that academic school of "must be scientifically proven," but subsequent years and life experiences have shown me how that can be quite limiting. Myself, I sometime struggle to objectively explain - as the scientific side of my brain starts to question the training benefits of these workouts - given their lack of specificity (how can you be super specific to something as varied as alpine climbing, though?).

 

My feelings are largely subjective: I know it feels right and I like it, but that's not objective proof. I realize that objective proof doesn't/won&'t exist - of course we have no double-blind, controlled studies - it'd be impossible to control all the variables anyway. Things like the examples in your "feedback" part of your article are similar to my feelings, and feelings of others I've chatted with.

 

It's odd, though, in a sense, in that the proven scientific benefits of various training modalities all point to specificity. These things are easily explained, down the cellular level - the specific things, from neural pathways to muscle cells, that get repeatedly stressed, they're the ones that adapt. Obviously, there's more to it.

 

I've learned a ton from your site, and mimicking some of your workouts and using some of your exercises. Usually I create my own workouts, but none of us exist in a vacuum, and I've benefited greatly from looking at your workouts - thanks. One of the most brutal exercises I picked up from you are those damned Curtis P things. Sweetjesusman. One time, and only one (therefore, note to self: Kelly, get your sorry ass back in there doing these things), I thought I'd get clever and make a variation of them. I'd often done these lunges where, instead of dipping my back knee to the ground and then switching legs, I dip that back knee down three times before switching legs. Sometimes I'd do them lighter weight, faster, a bit more metabolic style with higher reps. Other times, heavier weight. They always felt like they were good for me, especially for knee strength and stability. (BTW, I had major spinal surgery 3 yrs ago, followed by a more minor knee surgery.) Anyway, so I put my 3-touch lunge version into the Curtis P exercise, calling it either Curtis P3 or "Curly P" (no idea why I liked the sound of "Curly" for this, but it made me chuckle). Arg, just wrecked me. Hard to stabilize myself on the 3rd dip of each lunge, I nearly fell over. Funny, too, the "micro-psychology" (to invent a term) that goes on in sets of hard exercise. With Curts/Curly P - do I set the weight down and rest, b/c I'm nearly dying here, but then, after a few seconds rest, I'll have to put forth the effort to pick up the bar again and raise it to where I am now, damnit!

 

Sometimes I wonder if the most important part of these workouts might be the mental toughness required. Certainly that's a huge benefit, regardless of where it ranks in the list of benefits.

 

If you're still reading through my disjointed email, again, just wanted to say thanks. Fun to talk about these things, and if you ever find yourself in Estes Park, we can hit Rod's Gym for a workout.

 

Take care, - Kelly

 

ROB'S RESPONSE/COMMENTS:

 

Kelly,

 

Thanks for the note. A few months ago I saw a video on the patagonia website about you and your training. In it you spoke of the importance in fast/light mountaineering of "moving fast on moderate terrain."

 

So the next day I took my three young climbers, Neil, Will and Andy to the climbing gym, slapped 25# packs on them and put them through a couple "Team" metabolic circuits. Each time, the "timer" was the guy on the auto belay doing 2 laps on the climbing wall (easy 5.7 climbing, but the wall is slightly overhung). The other two were either running up a flight of stairs, or doing burpees, or something else metabolic. When it came time to switch, I wanted the guy moving to the climbing wall to be breathing heavy already, forcing him to "move fast over moderate terrain" - when winded. To add incentive, I timed the combined climbing wall laps, of of course, testosterone kicked in and Andy, Neil and Will moved faster and faster trying to get the best time.

 

I worked really well, but we sure did get funny looks in the climbing gym, and the manager was a little upset with us ...

 

Some response to your comments below:

 

(1) Sport Specificity - Very important, and for some people, all that's needed to perform at the highest level. Certainly the annuals of greats in any mountain or endurance sports are full of athletes who never bothered with gym training. I think those days are coming to an end in the mountain sports, but I could be wrong.

 

(2) Gym training vs. Climbing - You wrote that you see gym training as a "supplement" to your climbing, and if you have only time and energy for one or the other, you go climbing. I guess we're trying to create programming that better integrates the two.

 

One approach I think of is that training in the "artificial" environment of the gym where you can get the bulk of your foundational fitness, thus making your time in the mountains more efficient by allowing you to do technical training there, not so much basic fitness.

 

Second, I hope that through training in the gym we can identify and fix general weakness and strength imbalances from sport specific training which can lead to injury - therefore making my athletes more durable - in Twights's words, "harder to kill."

 

(3) Nat Patridge - Nat is certainly a badass, but when he and I talk in the gym about the training, he never mentions improving mountain performance. He wants to get healthier, and be more durable. Over the course of the busy summer guiding season, Nat, who's already super lean - loses weight, and by the end, just feels really run down. We're trying to make him stronger, put some muscle on him (armor) and change his home and at work diet to keep him more healthy. He is a great example of the "Industrial Athlete" I mentioned in the Alpinist piece.

 

(4) Effectiveness of this training - You are right. I can easily measure weights lifted and workout times in the gym, and show improvement there. But how does this improve stuff on the mountain? Much harder to prove. A couple thoughts ....

 

Getting stronger has effects beyond physical. It makes you a stronger and tougher person overall, not just strong in the context of working out. The physical strength gym gains empower my athletes in other areas of their lives - including work and family. Confidence blossoms - I see it in the way they walk, changes they make in their lives, etc. And because our training isn't easy, this confidence isn't cheap - it's hard earned, and real. My guides and climbers report that this confidence transfers to their mountain pursuits.

 

There's a difference between "working out" and "training." Working out has no long term goal or focus. "Training" does - this in one reason on the website the stuff we do that day is labeled "training." Many of my mountaineers were collegiate athletes or high school athletes, and often they tell me they haven't "trained" like this since their old school athletic days. Somehow - I haven't thought it through yet - when mountaineers stop "working out" and start "training" in our gym, it helps them feel more prepared and more professional because of it.

 

(6) Lift heavy - you hint that you do hard circuits, but never lift heavy. I'd encourage you to start. You'll quickly see the link between strength and better performance on the circuits.

 

(5) Curly Ps - You suck. Now I've got to try these ...

 

Thanks for the e-mail. Our doors are likewise open to you if you are ever tooling around the Tetons....

 

- Rob

 

 

 

 

I have a certain climbing partner of mine that I've discussed this topic with lately; he has a reasonably extensive history with "crossfitting"; some of the workouts he would do on a day to day basis would destroy an average person completely for days. But what he's found is that once getting out and climbing, and laying off the crossfit some has him climbing harder than he ever had before. In short (and to paraphrase him) he found that taking the time he had split between climbing and doing crossfit led to much less gains than taking all of the time and putting it into climbing. I'm sure one could argue that the crossfit base that he had built led to the climbing gains, later.

 

The impression that I get from MtnAthlete and Gym Jones is that gym training will get you ~65-70% there and that the sport specific exercises such as climbing will train the neuropathways to make the strength applicable...though while reading through the Gym Jones topics, it seems as though his thoughts on certain topics are still evolving. Read this post for instance. http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44&GymJonesSess=379dd5f0ff03504f69e7c5d8838327d0

 

As for myself, it varies wildly due to the new puppy and my work schedule, but I aim for two or three distance days (hiking with heavy pack is ideal, bike riding is substitute as it has more muscle recruitment than running), and a couple of climbing related workouts a week (drytooling, tool hangs, bouldering, a day at Beacon, crossfit workout utilizing climbing specific movements, whatever).

 

Left with a short amount of time, I'll try to do something as climbing specific as possible. Twight once emailed me back after I'd asked him about ice climbing technique. To paraphrase him, "strength goes for a while, efficiency goes all day". In a pinch that's why I aim for sport specific exercises.

 

The frustrating part of all of this is that I have friends who have time to just get out and "do it". They work in the field, and it gives them all the sport specific exercise they need. They are FIT....and they don't need to be as anal retentive as I am about this crap.

 

Sorry about the long winded post!

 

Cheers,

Chad

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chad_A]

BTW, as far as integration, that's a good question. The people that I know that integrate it with climbing either substitute crossfit for climbing for the day, or make sure they go climbing before they waste themselves with a crossfit workout.

[fern]

What area of your fitness are you looking to improve Ken? Why are you toying with the idea of doing Crossfit? Everyone's got different goals.

 

For integrating (competitive) biking with Crossfit - crossfitendurance.com

 

For integrating climbing w/ mixed-modal "hybrid" Strength and Conditioning - Mountain Athlete (mtnathlete.com)

 

For occasional climbing + Crossfit : Crossfit Sunnyvale http://www.crossfitsunnyvale.com/

 

Demos of most core functional exercises that are worth doing can be found on the crossfit site. If it's not there it's probably not worth spending a lot of time doing IMO.

 

Both Gym Jones and Mountain Athlete have some funny-named exercises (eg Mr. Spectacular) that are essentially just complexes of simpler movements. "Mr. Spectacular" is a 2-hand KB Clean + stiff legged hand walkout to plank + pushup + stiff legged hand walk back.

 

For learning good form, nothing beats having a coach with a good eye. This is the internet - video yourself and post to youtube or vimeo. I'll coach you. I'm even like all certified 'n' shit

 

 

[pink_chalk]

www.crossfit.com has tons of video demoing exercises and movements. Spend some time weeding through the site - it's FREE. Fern is correct; nothing beats 1:1 good / quality coaching.

 

Fast forward: one thing I will add is that it has taken me a while to learn sport specific programming - which leads me to straying from the "team" during a group WOD. I also have to be careful not to over do it so that as Chad A. mentioned - too wrecked for Disneyland.

 

Solid information from Chad and Fern. Good luck-

 

[ken4ord]

So as for goals, basically I am in an very urban environment at sealevel, with very little chance to get out of the city and climb and mountain bike. So lately I have been hiting the gym, which I like, I can actually get into throwing around the weights and not get too bored with it, but it is not satifying even if I am progressing.

 

I am able to get out for a run about once or twice a week and one bike ride a week. There is a climbing wall that I want to start hitting once a week and eventually I am going to build a new bouldering wall. The gym climbing and biking are mentally satisfying and something I don't want to drop, hence how to incorporate them into a CF routine.

 

What I want to be prepared for is that occasional trip to Nepal, Thailand or back home where I have limited time to climb. I don't want my physical self to be the limiting factor in performance. This summer I realized not getting any mileage on real snow, rock and ice my mental abilities were main limiting factor in performance, but I also know that when I feel physically capable my mental ability improves. So keep overall fitness up, but with a focus to be able to perform climbing when I get a chance.

 

I like idea of CF cause it sounds like it is also mentally challenging, which I am curious to see if prepares me better for climbing when I have the chance. Ideally I would definitely join a gym and get personal coaching, but don't have that access here in Dhaka. I am going to see if there are others who are interested in regular CF training, but I highly doubt it. Fern thanks for the offer and I might take you up on that since I am on my own here and new to CF. I like what I see on the mountain athlete site, but have a hard time knowing what everything is. I been pulling the video off the CF site so I have access to them when I need them.

 

 

[dmuja]

 

For integrating climbing w/ mixed-modal "hybrid" Strength and Conditioning - Mountain Athlete (mtnathlete.com)

 

Hmmm. so, whats with the nazi iron cross thingy on the mtnathlete web site?

 

Thought maybe they were based in "northern Idaho" then I noticed its Wy.

 

curious symolism but not so suprising I guess

[John Frieh]

I dont know your travel schedule but Rob (mtnathlete.com) will be doing a second seminar in PDX some time in late Feb/early March... I would highly recommend attending as programming (what you do day to day, % of crossfit per week vs % of time in the gym vs cardio, what lifts/exercises/WODs will benefit you) will dictate whether your climbing ability benefits or suffers. Anybody can pick a workout off some website... it takes knowledge and some art to put together months of workouts that at the end will make you a better climber.

 

It would also be in your best interests to either take Fern up on her generous offer (she has more certs than anyone on cc.com by a long shot) and/or attend a CrossFit Level 1 cert to learn the fundamentals of these movements. CrossFit @ full prescription strength is extremely potent and the potential for injury is great especially with the lack of a certified instructor. I know that CrossFit affiliates exist in both Europe and Australia... it might behoove you to keep an eye out for a seminar close to you or time a trip to the US such that you can attend both a CF level 1 cert and Rob’s cert.

 

[ken4ord]

I am definitely wary of jumping into it full bore, especially without any training or personal assistance. It is pretty obvious to see that there is high risk of injury in dynamic weight training, (which a lot of it seems to invovle). That is why I am here picking brains and with a little bit of expermentation figure out things that will work for me.

 

I have been keeping my eyes open for trainings, but they have not seem to be during the times of my visits and I generally have other obligations during those times.

[PLC]

I'm fairly experienced with crossfit, and I'd say it's moderately useful, but I wouldn't get too caught up in it - it really won't improve your fitness any more than any other workout schedule.

 

I followed the workout of the day on my own for about six months and then joined Crossfit Eastside and went there 3-4 days a week for about a year-and-a-half.

 

While I saw improvements in my "crossfit workouts", I can't say that I actually got any fitter. Basically, the crossfit workouts always try to include some obscure movement that allows you to improve your time as you acquire the "skill" to perform this movement. It's really a charade, but I'm not sure if the crossfit people know that its phony or if they've fooled themselves?

 

Anyway, climb as much as you can, ride your bike, run, do some yoga or stretching and lift weights a couple times a week. That should cover basic fitness and you won't have to bother joining a cult of idiots.

[olyclimber]

Whatever motivates and helps you meet your goals. just ask Tom Cruise.

 

But seriously, I think motivation and keeping on target is the hardest part about fitness. Beyond that it is mostly based on natural ability.

[olyclimber]

I also can't believe I was stupid enough to challenge Fern to a pushup contest. But then again, I would do it again. Winner takes all.

[kevino]

Chad thanks for that post.

[fern]

I think anyone posting here is already too late to avoid joining the real cult of idiots

 

following the Crossfit model of developing general fitness is doing great things for many people. And many people are doing great things in physical efforts and sports without ever having heard of Crossfit. There's lots of ways to get up off the couch. Urban based sport-specific training for high-end technical alpine climbing or remote mountain endurance efforts is an underdeveloped field (well the eastern europeans and russians probably have a better idea of it - and it probably has something to do with eating raw bacon). The cool thing about the internet is that guys like Rob Shaul and Brian MacKenzie and anybody else can research and tinker with training and share their results in real time. Gym Jones keep their cards close, Crossfit seems settled into its system with limited new advances. I don't think anyone has got it optimized yet.

[John Frieh]

Quick ducking the question Fern... Rematch for Porter?

 

 

[pink_chalk]

I also can't believe I was stupid enough to challenge Fern to a pushup contest. But then again, I would do it again. Winner takes all.

 

I would be willing to bet she could still beat you wearing a 25lb weight vest.

[fern]

I think Porter actually did win the pushup contest - or at least beat me. I might have won the beer drinking contest but I don't remember

[G-spotter]

The next pushup contest should consist of doing 1 (one) pushup and being marked for style by a jury.

[John Frieh]

Dru could do more pushups than all of us combined if he could do his over the top of a baa

[G-spotter]

Sheep dips?

That's not fuzzy logic - just woolly thinking.

[John Frieh]

:lmao:

 

I'm gonna see if I can get Rob @ Mtn Athlete to name a workout that

[John Frieh]

:lmao:

 

I'm gonna see if I can get Rob @ Mtn Athlete to name a workout that

 

Dru! A workout named after you! link

[CollinWoods]

I go to the gym and train for basketball and climbing. Its hard to do cardio for mountaineering when you can play basketball. Frousterating 2 sports of mine.

[akhalteke]

I'll tell you what. Sometimes, doing crossfit first and then climbing will help you with your technique. You are so smoked, you will have to rely on good technique to get you through. Be careful though as i am sure that this could make you more injury prone. YMMV.

[akhalteke]

I think Porter actually did win the pushup contest - or at least beat me. I might have won the beer drinking contest but I don't remember

 

How many we talking about here?