JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 oh stfu up already.... From you, it's a compliment. Are you saying this is bad? JH, have you been on the cables? I'm saying that it will be used as a long-standing precedent for building via ferratas for access on public lands across the country. New York Times, Men's Health, and others have been running 'adventure' articles on them of late and a US clone of the EU via ferrata access groups won't be far behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 i think a via ferrata would be a much more interesting way to get to the top of beacon rock than the silly trail that is there now. if we got a via ferrata built, you think there's any chance they might remove the trail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 No, they'd put it up the SE Corner claiming equal access and that it does no damage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 oh well, at least we'd have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 There you go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blizzardscout2 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I am fairly new to this sport, but have been watching from afar for several years. My stand on this is: yeah, maybe we shouldnt be bolting every route we come across so everyone may be able to "safely" climb everything. On the other hand, I think that sport routes are essential in the climbing sport because it makes everyone better without taking on a tremendous amount of risk to ones own life. In my opinion, it is no different than forming a trail that leads up to the top of a peak. Obviously the trail would eventually return to its "natural" state with time where the holes created by the bolts would not as easily (but they would with much time). Now I know from being immersed in the environmental craze in Seattle that everyone has a lot of opinions on things and quite often to the extreme. So Joseph I can see where you come from with in your opinion, but I believe you are a little to the extreme. Nobody is out there trying to bolt everything they come across and as billcoe has pointed out, there is no atrocity in rebolting: you cant even see the bolts and I looked pretty hard. Dont get me wrong though, I dont want everyone bolting every single route either. I do, however, believe that they are essential to this sport and in no way endanger the environment. On a side note: I have packed out my fair share of "other people's trash" while climbing peaks here in the Cascades. It is just the same inconsiderate morons that throw their trash out the window on the side of the road. No matter where you go there will always be those kind of people. All well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 On the other hand, I think that sport routes are essential in the climbing sport because it makes everyone better without taking on a tremendous amount of risk to ones own life. Blizzard, thanks for your comments and perspective. I would say you clearly are quite new to climbing which does have a long history. Over the past twenty five years of it, sport climbing and gyms have completely changed the nature of the 'sport'. What started out so innocently, was gyms attempting to provide an acceptable indoor emulation of outdoor climbing, but which ended up morphing into something entirely different as generations of climbers learned to climb in them rather than outdoors. What resulted instead was when these newly minted 'climbers' left the gyms to go outdoors, they then simply wanted an outdoor emulation of what they had learned indoors - a 'safe', risk-free entertainment option. And the relentless bolting of rocks to emulate gyms has been the rule, as opposed to the exception, for easily the past fifteen years. My views and opinions are far less rooted in any 'environmental' concerns and lie almost totally in personal responsibility with regard to managing the "amount of risk to ones own life" posed by climbing, a respect for what the rock offers as it is, and the unavoidably consumptive nature of sport climbing as it ends up expressed on rock after rock cummulatively over time. I explicitly do not agree with bolting rock in an endlessly consumptive cycle simply to provide a constant stream of [new] risk-free recreational opportunities for bored suburbanites. 'Risk free' being the key word there. The end result of this behavior has been an explosion in the numbers of 'climbers'; an easy 85% of whose climbing is wholly and entirely bolt-dependent. Again, you are new and don't know the legacy and are quite typical of new climbers in that respect. People on both sides of the bolting divide positioning this as an environmental issue widely miss the mark as far as I'm concerned. It is a specious argument in defense of bolting and a largely irrelevant one in opposition to it. The principal environmental impact, such that it is, comes almost entirely from the inevitable traffic, degradation, and abuse generated by large numbers of climbers attracted by the bolts - not to mention the access issues. It truly is a case of "bolt it, and they will come" (particularly when you spray excessively about it). And if you don't think bolting routes is 'consumptive' act then you only need to watch it in action at places like Ozone where - almost in real time - you can see the 'development' cycle in action and the real, palpable angst over who does what when; particularly as the lines dry up in a mere year or two. If it weren't consumptive, there wouldn't be all this tremendous level of angst around it all as 'secrecy' collapses, the crowds move in from behind, and new lines die out. But, hey, you can rest assured by the time that's all in full swing the inevitable hunt for the next 'secret' rock to bolt is already well underway, if not already under the gun. Radical and 'extreme' views in a changing world? No doubt I suppose, but as I said, I have no problem that - they haven't changed in thirty four years and aren't likely to anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I'm bald. Oh la-la isn't suppose to be in the sex thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 its just you and the rock baby! and sticky shoes and costco quantities of chalk and hemp bienies and... ....yeah and lots gardening and paving the bottom of the problem and scrubbing and cutting down the ocassional tree that is in the way of the latest V8 that might never see a second ascent...... ....ah yes "truest" form of climbing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Bill, so let me see if I've got this straight... You post up a thread taunting Raindawg using a specious argument about bolting and the 'environment', which itself comes after any number of threads on several climbing forums where you repeatedly defend bolting as being acceptable, desirable, and no big deal 'environmentally' speaking. So now, somehow, I'm rude for surmising from your various postings and 'poke-in-the-eye' drill signature that you think bolting away is a-ok. Becuse if that's not your view and opinion then I'd say you have a damn peculiar way when on-line of expressing whatever your opinion really is to people whom don't know you other than through your posts - which are decidedly and consistently pro-bolt. The worst-case conclusion one can take from them on face value is you have made the leap from rock as something having value as it is, in its own right, to rock as just another canvas or commodity waiting for a human to work and consume it. That view is entirely consistent with the core of the Judeo-Christian belief god put it all here for us to use and consume. The best-case interpretation I can envision from them is you just have a laissez faire attitude of 'whatever' when it comes to folks bolting away. That's also a pretty common attitude these days among a lot of older climbers and one I personally find hard not to see as simply 'not making waves', 'fitting-in', and 'going-with-the-flow'. Hell, some even go so far as to simply rewrite LNT, clean climbing, and the seventies in general out of history as either 'didn't really happen' or 'was just a few sporadic and inconsistent folks' - nothing could be farther from the truth. But, it's clear that some of us actually still holding to and deriving value from those 'ancient' beliefs is a pain in the ass. And my god, to actually question the overwhelming [uninformed] 'common wisdom' and [risk-free] majority opinion? Gadzooks, man! Are you crazy? Clearly, but then with via ferratas just beginning to [predictably] infect the US, maybe not so crazy. And make no mistake, via ferratas will be spread using the exact same entitlement argument which lies at the foundation of sport climbing. And I'd say we haven't begun to see your 'environmental' argument played out in further justifying them (nope, can't see that via ferrata from space or google earth). I'm betting it's only a matter of time before someone, somewhere makes an ADA access claim for a via ferrata on public land using the cables on Half Dome as precedent and we'll be off and running - and they'll be quoting arguments like yours in their court briefs. So, I'd say either be clearer about what you mean, or be careful what you wish for, because you do have a lot of influence around here. That, and don't light fires under other people in spray if you don't really care for the heat... I would think most people would have just asked first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 But, hey, you can rest assured by the time that's all in full swing the inevitable hunt for the next 'secret' rock to bolt Thanks for your insightful words JH. I do enjoy reading your posts. Even if I disagree. Try not to look at it as “the next secret rock to bolt”. Try looking at it like “the next secret rock to climb”. I did not go to Ozone thinking bolt, bolt, bolt. That is what we found due to lots of faces without cracks to place modern gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyobob Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 REI and Mounties group sex day, you know there's polypro neath them britches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Bill, the reason for my response is your recent spate of pro-bolt postings like the original post in this thread. I mean, come on - re-read it, how do you think someone is going to take that post? Just what message did you intend for someone to take away from it's clear questions and 'poke-in-the-eye' double 'lil dawg' drill photos? Words and images stand on there own here on-line - most folks don't know you or me - and can only interpret our posts based on what they read, not on knowing us. And most folks tend to take what they read at face value attempting to establish intent and meaning based on what is said. You can say 'most people would have just asked first', and I'd again say the intent and meaning behind your first post is just what you intended - and is 'poke-in-the-eye' obvious to the average reader. I don't know how you can expect other than folks will interpret your clear words and images as anything other than as staunchly pro-bolt? And you and other like to use this 'environment' argument and have for decades - and that particular argument, which I do and have strongly disagreed with is what I was responding to and isn't personal, it isn't about you and me, but rather about the discussion on bolting that's been going on since the early 80's. My response is similarly not personal, but rather speaks from my perspective to the values which are explicit in this long-running 'environmental' argument. I personally just see a fundamental divide being crossed, by anyone, when they advocate and defend unrestricted bolting and use that particular argument - and that divide is one that flips rock from something of value as it is, to just another canvas for humans to exploit. By and large, people here don't know either of us and I was simply responding to the substance and arguments of your post, as it stands on it's own here, and no differently than I expect folks will take mine - as meaning what I say in what I post up. It's no different than when I say I think, one hundred years later, that it took almost exactly the same amount of time, dollars, and courage to bolt every rock in America as it did to kill all the buffalo - it's broad commentary, not personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Try not to look at it as “the next secret rock to bolt”. Try looking at it like “the next secret rock to climb”. I did not go to Ozone thinking bolt, bolt, bolt. That is what we found due to lots of faces without cracks to place modern gear. That would be easier to do if on arriving at the new rock, everyone's first instinct wasn't to drop ropes to preview, clean, and bolt lines that quite likely could be done trad before even giving them an onsight, ground-up, no-dogging go first. In fact, I'm currently being asked about just such a line so it isn't just random speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Then please don't post in the Random Speculation section. Just kidding. bolt everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octopuswithafez Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Are you saying this is bad? JH, have you been on the cables? Nothing like the great outdoors for some peace and solitude. Can't wait until you can pack heat legally there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Joseph: is anyone really advocating unrestricted bolting? Even those clueless self-absorbed consumptive gym climbers for whom you have such contempt? You are making some good points here but I think you are overstating your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 (edited) Matt, all you have to do is head out to the rocks or jump on RC.com to see it in full-bloom, or locally here in PDX head out to Ozone or any number of current 'secret' project spots. Are you trying to claim providing new bolted lines isn't an insatiable thirst and a driving 'community service'? Sorry, not buying that for a minute. Edited March 12, 2008 by JosephH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 oh stfu... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 oh stfu... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underworld Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 i thought this whole bolting vs not bolting controversy was settled in the last bolting vs not bolting online argument... dammit.. maybe it'll get settled in this one. once and for all!!!!!11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 JH....when are you going to go out to the zone and send alot of the routes on gear? Because until you do personally....I see you as having no legs to stand on with bringing Ozone into the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I am one of those old climbers who "......" but I disagree with your stance on bolting well as your lumping of me into a group that "does not care". Bolting sucks as far as I am concerned. It is permanent and will someday be un-neccessary. People like Rumr who are damn good climbers should be more careful about wantonly advocating it, or dismissing it imo. They are capable of climbing way more than most in traditional style. And it would be more sustainable environmentally if people LIKE this were more outspoken about striving for cleaner style. So why do I disagree with you? We need more people to get outside and value "nature" for what it is. If bolting provides the stimulus and or avenue for that to happen then it is still a small price to pay compared to dirt bikes at Vantage, 4-wheelers on top of Index, etc. One step at a time. Sad I know. Machivellian even. But to a far lesser extent than most outdoor alternatives of recent US vintage. Political power will become more and more important as the population continues to explode. We need more people who value the outdoors and bolting is a clear draw for huge numbers. I stood out against bolting in the Bitterroots in the 80's and lost friends over it (not my choice but theirs). The bolts came anyway but the crowds still have not followed. The crowds still go to Lolo domes and other "bumper-belay" areas. These are areas that have already been logged, mined , and roaded. Some of the bolts in the Bitterroot have since dissappeared. Some have yet to be removed. Some will stay as they provide the only safe way to protect sections of long routes. Mill Creek is a sportclimber's heaven except that you have to walk a mile or two, and it is up hill. The point is, Wilderness has remained wilderness while mega masses have taken up sport climbing. I think that will generally continue to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Are you trying to claim providing new bolted lines isn't an insatiable thirst and a driving 'community service'? Sorry, not buying that for a minute. I didn't claim anything of the kind but, now that you bring it up, I will also once again suggest you are overstating your case. Yes, there are a small number of climbers who get "bitten by the bug" and focus all or much of their effort on new routing, but "insatiable thirst?" Rapists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Are you trying to claim providing new bolted lines isn't an insatiable thirst and a driving 'community service'? Sorry, not buying that for a minute. I didn't claim anything of the kind but, now that you bring it up, I will also once again suggest you are overstating your case. Yes, there are a small number of climbers who get "bitten by the bug" and focus all or much of their effort on new routing, but "insatiable thirst?" Rapists? Overstating your case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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