Petzl rocpeck drill and placing bolts

[Jamin]

I recently purchased a petzl rocpeck drill. Does anybody know what size drill bit to use with it? What would be the best size bit for 3/8 in. bolts. I guess you guys can really tell now that I am a newbie at sport climbing.

 

What is the cheapest place to get some cheap climbing bolts and hangers.

 

 

[G-spotter]

You should NOT be drilling holes or placing bolts. It's that simple.

[mattp]

I agree that anybody who is new to climbing and has limited background with different styles of climbing should probably not be bolting anything but he's already had that lecture, GSpot. If he wants to read about what an idiot he is and why he should not even think of placing a bolt, he can simply reread his "placing bolts" thread from last year. See here.

 

For some information about bolting, here is one source. camp4.com It starts out with some advice about really considering whether what you plan to do is a good idea in the first place, but it also provides quite a bit of good information. Use a 3/8" bit for a 3/8" bolt hole.

[Bigtree]

I certainly don't want to mix it up with MattP or G-spot, but if you feel the urge to bolt, do yourself a huge favour and purchase a Rigid (or other similar brand) battery operated hammer drill. I have the Rocpeck (3/8" SDS X 6 to 8" bit by the way) and its painfully slow. I just placed a couple of bolts/hangers/rap rings atop a new route last Saturday in a newly developing area and used the hammer drill for it - 5 mins per hole vs. > 1 hr with the Rockpec. A full battery charge typically does about 4 holes per. Also, don't use cheap crap (i.e., spend the money and buy good stainless gear that won't rust out). Lastly, if you're determined to whack away with the Rocpeck: a) try a practice hole or two someplace benign before messing on a potential route; and, b) bring some mind-occupying music.

[pink]

this guy can't be for reals.

 

 

[mattp]

Bigtree, you have an unusual drill if you only get 4 holes per battery charge. 40 holes is more like it these days and even the first generation Bulldog would produce 6-8 holes for a 3 1/2" bolt in granite on a single battery charge. As for Flintstone rigs, I hear from a reliable source that there are better units out there than the rockpeck for efficiency, but slightly heavier.

 

Depending on what Jamin has in mind, I'm not sure I'd go for the power drill. For one thing, they come with a hefty price tag. For another, they weigh a lot. If you are not drilling a lot of holes, and especially if you are not climbing on a roadside crag, the old fashioned set up may be preferable. A machine produces a better hole, though.

 

Bigtree is right: practice somewhere benign before you butcher a potential route and spend the money for good hardware rather than junk. If you are going to place a bolt, make it a good one and consider using one of the bolts that is removable rather than a stud. Even if you put all your bolts in great places, someone is going to want to remove them one day - whether they are found unnecessary or require maintenance.

[Bigtree]

Sacré bleu! 40 holes per charge. The wee thing I use only gives 4 (well, really only 3 and 3/4 before it starts to whimper):

 

[billcoe]

Jamin gets out into the far wilderness. He's not talkin about bolting sport routes if previous discussions enter into it.

 

Here's the story jamin. For remote, rarely climbed areas, 1/4" diameter still gets used, but hangers are getting hard to find. So you might as well get a 3/8 x 6" SDS drill bit with a carbide tip. That's what fits that holder. You can get 5" of depth on that bit, although they say 4" in the literature, it is exactly a Red C$#@ hair over 5". I would think that a hammer like Forrest use to make would be the shizzel for you. It's lighter than a wall hammer, but will serve you well, buy one off ebay and make sure you get the picks you want. They have like 4 or so, including a round Lowe style water ice one.

Forrest Moljinar top, Forrest wall hammer, Kong Eagle bottom.

 

The top one is the Forrest you want, see the screws? You can change picks for what you want to do. Thats the rock pick on that one, for scraping crap out of cracks and knocking out hexes:-) It won't work as well for you as a stand alone ice hammer on ice, or as good a standard wall hammer on a wall, but you don't want to be carrying that weight anyway for the stuff you do, and you can change picks and use it as a 3rd tool for steep snow or ice as they are light.

 

For hangers, if you are doing the remote climbs, Stainless Mad rocks will work and are lighter, I have some and think they suck next to the Fixe (which I like the best), but the Fixe are heavy. Use a stainless steel wedge anchor. If you are on Granite, you can get by with @ 2" length, for basalt go longer. You might carry a couple of sizes as you may be in a hurry and have to stuff a short bolt in in an emergency just to get down something: late in the day, bad weather or totally wasted kind of thing. Don't buy a Fixe 10mm bolt and think that a 3/8" drill bit will do the job. Both must be 3/8" or both must be 10mm.

 

I'd recommend going out with some one and watching them do a bolt, but basically you tap (hit but not hit hard) then turn the holder 1/8-1/4 or so of a turn, tap turn tap turn, till you get a hole. Clean the hole by blowing the hole out with a straw and or a brush. ( you can skip this, but you might get an occasional spinner) Put the hanger washer and nut on, tap it in, tighten it down to spec. Spec on a 3/8" is 25-30 foot lbs per most Mfgs, but check the Mfg specs. I still use a torque wrench if it's gonna be a popular route and it's easy to transport there. A 6 in Cresent wrench real snug is right in there. Don't over tighten as it will weaken it. Check out this ASCA web site for more info.

 

Where are you located? the web is a good place to buy this crap, but maybe you have someone local? PDX had Climbmax, if they don't have it they'll order it for you.

 

Check out this site for more info: ASPCA site

 

Lastly, be VERY judicious where you put one in, as people get yanked if you are on an existing route and put one in.

[billcoe]

One more piece of advice, suggest you get a compentant, experienced partner for these mini-expeditions you do.

 

have fun!

[Bug]

Hey Jamin,

I am truely glad you are still alive!

 

When figuring out where exactly to place a bolt, consider the stance from which the bolt will be clipped (vs where you are drilling from). Can everybody of normal height reach the bolt easily? Is there a place that is protected from rockfall under a lip or something? etc.

 

Please be very careful about slamming in permanent bolts that everyone who goes there will see for the next 100 years or so.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[kurthicks]

where/what are you planning on bolting Jamin?

[counterfeitfake]

Nobody should participate in this thread without having read the thread mattp linked to.

 

Jamin wants to be able to drill bolts in case he raps down the wrong line off some remote peak he scrambled up. He's going to need a lot of bolts and hangers. If he brings a hammer the extra weight will cause him to epic.

 

Don't die, Jamin. Bring prusiks. Learn to routefind.

[Bigtree]

Billcoe, I'm always impressed with your gear collection (and advice). 3 hammers! I can barely afford 1 at ~ $80 CDN.

[MarkMcJizzy]

Mattp and Bigtree:

 

You guys are talking apple and oranges. Bigtree has a cordless hammer drill , and a Bulldog is a cordless roto-hammer . The hammer drill is a all-around drill motor, I use mine for drilling, and as a screw gun. I have never used a hammer drill as a roto-hammer, it takes too long. A roto-hammer is much more efficient for drilling concrete (or rock), but is a single purpose tool

[Bigtree]

That's helpful to know Markmckillop - thanks.

[mattp]

Thanks, Mark. I realized that Bigtree was not talking about the manly big bob machines when I saw his post with the picture.

 

With the modern megatools being the "standard," I had not thought that a "simple" cordless drill might actually drill holes in rock. This might be a good compromise between Flintstone technology and the Big Mac when all I want to do is upgrade a belay anchor or something.

 

Thanks, Bigtree. I think I'll follow up on this. The megamachines weight 15 pounds.

 

[AlpineK]

Jamin,

 

Combining newbie with just purchased a drill isn't the best mix.

 

Why not meet up with and climb with one of the guys in the Central/Eastern WA forum on CC who's involved in maintaining the Minnehaha area. I'm sure they would have some hands on practical experience they'd share.

[billcoe]

Why not meet up with and climb with one of the guys in the Central/Eastern WA forum on CC who's involved in maintaining the Minnehaha area. I'm sure they would have some hands on practical experience they'd share.

 

Good advice, I can highly recommend Dave Stephens if he'll go for it.

________________________________________________________

 

Billcoe, I'm always impressed with your gear collection (and advice). 3 hammers! I can barely afford 1 at ~ $80 CDN.

Bet you'd like to see the other 4...:-0

 

Oh, its a sickness for sure. And when Joseph makes those A5 wall hammers I'll be standing in that line to get one as well if possible.

[Bigtree]

Wikipedia is amazing...

 

"Hammer Drill...The hammer action is provided by two cam plates which makes the chuck rapidly pulse forward and backward as the drill spins on its axis. This pulsing (hammering) action is measured in Blows Per Minute (BPM) with 10,000 or more BPMs being common. Because of the relative masses of the chuck+bit and the remainder of the drill the energy transfer is relatively inefficient and can sometimes make it difficult for larger bits to penetrate harder materials such as poured concrete. Vibration is quite noticable by the operator, and the cams are generally made from hardened steel to avoid them wearing out quickly. Most electic hammer drills are rated at between 6.3 and 9 amps, and are restricted to standard masonary bits 1/2 inch in size maximum. A typical application for a hammer drill would be to install electrical boxes, conduit straps or shelves in concrete.

 

Compare this to a rotary/pneumatic hammer drill where just the bit is accelerated to the work. This is accomplished through a piston design, rather than a spinning cam. Rotary hammers have relatively little vibration and penetrate most building materials. They can also be used as "drill only" or as "hammer only" which extends their usefulness for tasks such as chipping brick or concrete. Hole drilling progress is greatly superior to cam type hammer drills, and these drills are generally used for holes of 3/4 an inch or greater in size. A typical application for a rotary hammer drill would be to bore large holes for lag bolts in foundations, or to install large lead anchors in concrete for handrails or benches.

 

A standard hammer drill accepts 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch drill bits, while a rotary hammer uses SDS or Spline Shank bits. These heavy bits are adept at pulverising the masonry and drill into this hard material with relative ease.

 

However there is a big difference in cost. In the UK typically £12 upward for a cam hammer and £35 up for a rotary/pneumatic. In the US a typical hammer drill will cost between $70 and $120, and a rotary hammer between $150 and $500 (depending on bit size). For DIY use or to drill holes less than 1/2 inch in size, the hammer drill is most commonly used."

 

[Matt Kidd]

I've never placed a bolt but I'd have to second what MarkM said. When drilling concrete, which is generally softer than rock, I never use my cordless drill/driver - the hammer drill on a standard cordless is not only painfully slow, its really hard on the batteries. That is why they die so quickly, you'll be buying new ones regularily if that is a common usage.

 

Jamin - a lot of people suggesting rethinking your approach, I hope you're listening. A lot of combined experience weighing in, after all...