2nd Amendment freedoms restored in National Parks?

[tvashtarkatena]

That's cuz there ain't nothin around your campsite worthy of a photo, pal.

[tvashtarkatena]

It's been fun circle jerkin with you boys. G'night, Your Majesties.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Ok... Guns in National Parks. Good idea?

 

 

I don't see the need...

 

Then again I haven't seen any pervs around my campsite taking photos to post on the internet. that might change my mind

 

Gee, FW, a mosquito keeps buzzing around. Actually, more like a warthog's asshole with explosive diarrhea. Thankfully on the internet you can easily avoid such beasts with a simple click of a button or two. Of course such dumb animals don't ever get the hint or have any decency to go shit somewhere else.

[Fairweather]

Like that comedian on TV says: "you caint fix stupid."

 

Oh well; another perfectly legitimate opportunity for discussion flushed down the toilet by cc.com's own cancer: Tvashtarketena.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Fairweather

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Like that comedian on TV says: "you caint fix stupid."

 

Or OCD. The best are the responses to people who are ignoring "it", followed by responses to the responses to the responses to the responses. All we see are "it's" stupid avatar with no text having a conversation with "itself".

[Dechristo]

I carried a pistol in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks several times. I had several encounters with Grizzlies, but thankfully, never needed to discharge the weapon. The tightest spot involved a mother with two baying cubs.

 

what was the caliber? a grizzly skull is pretty thick...

 

Yep. I knew I wouldn't be employing the weapon unless and until the animal was on top of me, literally. I've had, compared to most, extensive experience with bears, at home and on trips. Many false charges, chasing them out of camp at night, when called for, surrendering to their whims, and incidences of mutual respect initiating mutual withdrawal from situations. Most of the time, they want out of the situation of an encounter more than I.

 

Like any big animal, you can't count on a stopping shot to the front or top of the head.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I carried a pistol in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks several times. I had several encounters with Grizzlies, but thankfully, never needed to discharge the weapon. The tightest spot involved a mother with two baying cubs.

 

what was the caliber? a grizzly skull is pretty thick...

 

Yep. I knew I wouldn't be employing the weapon unless and until the animal was on top of me, literally. I've had, compared to most, extensive experience with bears, at home and on trips. Many false charges, chasing them out of camp at night, when called for, surrendering to their whims, and incidences of mutual respect initiating mutual withdrawal from situations. Most of the time, they want out of the situation of an encounter more than I.

 

Like any big animal, you can't count on a stopping shot to the front or top of the head.

 

I'll say this - you seem to have led a very interesting life.

[Dechristo]

...you seem to have led a very interesting life.

 

Haven't we all?

 

Probably, the most comical of bear encounters I witnessed did not involve me directly.

 

In the Fall of '76, I took a job in Yellowstone Park working for a private construction contractor who was employed to renovate the sewer systems in and around Lake, Wyoming. The workers were housed in mobile homes in the government employee trailer park. My two house-mates were 18-year-old Steve Quinlan (who developed into a prodigious climber, pioneering FA's throughout the world), and Richard Teer.

 

Richard owned a house in Gardiner and for years (until that year) had the firewood contract for the whole Park. Due to losing that contract, he needed to earn some coin to get him through the coming Winter and, so, took this job. Richard worked only in the Summer and Fall. Every Winter and Spring, he toured for months on end on near eight-foot-long touring skis, throughout the vast Yellowstone taking meat as he needed. Although he narrowly escaped severe injury or death due to the ravages of Winter storms, most of his travel time in the backcountry was spent migrating from one hot spring to another.

 

He described a veritable Winter paradise: at the hot springs, in the dead of Winter, there were broad expanses of warm green carpet, continually groomed by grazers, surrounding the thermal outcrops on which to comfortably abide. A warm bath was always available. Melting snow was as easy as floating a pot-full in the spring. Verdant oases in a sea of deep snow and wilderness.

 

Anyway, the bear.

 

As any experienced wayfarer, Richard rarely was without food at hand. Parked alongside the government mobile home, his '65 Ford pick-up truck held a footlocker full of food in its bed. One night, as we all snored away the fatigue of the previous day's work, a large bear discovered Richard's larder.

 

It's important to know Richard's appearance: 6'-8", rail-thin, long reddish-brown hair in mane and full-beard. Eyes and visage as hard and piercing as a boar spear. He was dressed for bed which meant stripped down to his one-piece cotton union suit that was slowly wearing away from him in tatters.

 

Repeatedly, as the bear was heard attacking the footlocker, Richard would spring from his cot, and with a broom in hand, burst out of the door with a war cry. This went on for hours. Steve and and I both made protests alternately for the interruptions to our rest to which Richard would softly mutter, "fuckin' bear", as the house settled after the latest skirmish.

 

The last uproar in the wee hours ended with the sound of Richard's laughter outside followed by his command, "...and don't fuckin' come back!"

 

At work the next day, I asked him just how the previous evening's war had concluded. He said, "Every time I ran out the door that bear would run off before I got to it. Finally, the last time, I got out there fast enough to hit that mother-fucker right in the side of the head with the broom." I laughed and asked him, "what did the bear do?"

 

He said, "That stupid mother-fucker just looked at me like 'WHAT THE FUCK DID I DO!?!' and ran off for the last time".

 

Ok, maybe you had to be there to see it and hear it.

 

 

[PLC]

In some national parks up in Alaska, the park service requires you to carry a gun, for your own protection.

 

When I'm visiting Denali, Glacier, etc., I'm always armed because my wife won't enter grizzly country without a gun. The way I figure, I'd rather do a couple months in prison than the rest of eternity under ground...

 

And, yes, a .357 is plenty powerful enough to deter an inland grizzly. It would prove next to useless against a coastal brown bear, but an inland grizzly is a much smaller critter.

[rob]

I'm not sure how I feel about this law. On the one hand, I'm pretty libertarian on the second ammendment. I'm of the belief we should ammend the bill of rights to clarify that freedom, as I don't believe it's as simple of an issue as it was in the 18th century. Why not clarify it officially, rather than following the whim of 12 men?

 

On the other hand, I think that people who feel a need to carry a gun are kinda crazy, and I'm not sure I like precendent of appeasing them with less-restricted gun control. If anything, I believe we need more gun-control.

 

Bottom line, I'm not certain that a problem exists which requires this law. What's the point? Have there been lots of violent crime in the national parks? Is this a pandemic problem I've never heard of? Have there been a rash of animal attacks? What is the demographic of the average gun carrier taking advantage of this law? Backcountry travellers or RVers? Do RVers really need guns? Have there been a lot of assaults in RV parks?

 

No, I think this is just a political move by the pro-gun lobby, trying to win back some ground for "their side."

[ivan]

tvash + fairweather = gay pride parade

[Hugh Conway]

tvash + fairweather = gay pride parade

 

without the fashion sense or gym built bodies

[StevenSeagal]

Guns are legal to carry on virtually all USFS land, including wilderness areas--at least in this state. (Not sure about National Monuments) Can you demonstrate where problems have arisen? Do a citizen's constitutionally protected rights end at the gate to a national park? Does free speech end there too? A clear case can be made, in rare instances, for the banning of open or concealed carry weapons--like courthouses, aircraft, even taverns, but there is no compelling case to be made for suspending a law-abiding citizen's rights on open public property. It's just possible that this "rule" is being flaunted even as we speak. Hell, an NPS ranger at Wrangell-St Elias even offered my group the use of a shotgun during my last visit. When I confessed that we were already armed, he simply gave me a thumbs-up.

 

Alaska parks are a grey area due to the remoteness and abundance of potentially dangerous wildlife, and one where I think an exception for carrying firearms into the backcountry for protection could be negotiated. I think there already some provisions in Denali and Wrangell perhaps?

 

The examples of trail murders you offered invoke emotional reactions, yet the reality is that being assaulted by a psychopath on a hiking trail is statistically extremely improbable. It would, on the other hand, seem much more statistically probable to experience a violent assault while on the campus of a high school or college campus. Is denying students the right to bring guns to class a violation of their constitutional rights? Same with airports and airplanes.

 

As to your question about problems arising on USFS land; well most directly, I can offer my own personal experience. There are at least 4 or 5 times I can recall feeling truly threatened or otherwise in an uncomfortable situation in the mountains. Each of these involved being bivied at a trailhead or camping in an actual campground, when a truckload of drunk rednecks arrived late at night blasting country music, poured out of the truck, began smashing bottles, and then brandishing guns or even firing them randomly into the forest and at objects for target practice. I don't mean to distract the argument with the redneck reference, but it's relevant, along with them being drunk, rowdy, and armed, in the level of (im) possibility of engaging them in conversation and trying to get them to quiet down and be respectful. So I always hear about "law abiding gun owners", and I know there are plenty of them, but is this sort of situation fair for the rest of us who do not feel the need to carry a gun either for protection, or for the simple entertainment value of it- being put into a disadvantaged situation? Sure, I could solve the problem by arming myself at trailheads- or does that solve it really? What, am I going to get out and have a standoff or a shootout with them next time?

 

Anyway, this doesn't need to turn into an anti-gun rant. I actually enjoy shooting guns. But I like my chances in the national parks and I don't see the need for them there. I'm not sure it is an accident that the "crazies" are most often to be found lurking around in USFS and BLM land, and much more likely to be armed as well. All but one of the examples you cited were in non-NPS land. The parks are patrolled by law enforcement rangers and in this regard, I trust them to do the job they have been commissioned to do, even if I'm not particularly fond of their methods or their attitude.

 

 

[Gary_Yngve]

SS, well stated. My scariest moments involved being in the vicinity of folks shooting across a road, without a good backstop, etc.

 

these happened on Middle Fork at the Infinite Bliss pullout and at the TH for the approach to the N/NW side of Mt. Adams.

[tvashtarkatena]

40 + .357 + 4 x 4 = Pretty fuckin good weekend!

Edited February 28, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The examples of trail murders you offered invoke emotional reactions, yet the reality is that being assaulted by a psychopath on a hiking trail is statistically extremely improbable.

 

My reaction to this is that even if you are packing, a deranged psychopath who is bent on killing someone is not really going to give you a chance to a fair shootout, now is he? I would imagine said psychopath sniping you from behind some hiding place, or killing you in your sleep, so the gun wouldn't really help.

 

[ivan]

40 + .357 + 4 x 4 = Pretty fuckin good weekend!

your forget the all important 1/4 for the 420!

[tvashtarkatena]

I've noticed that in the past 10 years, the skinny mullet pickemup driving yahoo has been replaced with the corn fed skin head goateed pickemup driving yahoo. I realize that America in general has been getting chuffier, but has anyone else notice this trend?

[rob]

Does this mean I will be able to smoke in the Muir hut now?

[StevenSeagal]

The examples of trail murders you offered invoke emotional reactions, yet the reality is that being assaulted by a psychopath on a hiking trail is statistically extremely improbable.

 

My reaction to this is that even if you are packing, a deranged psychopath who is bent on killing someone is not really going to give you a chance to a fair shootout, now is he? I would imagine said psychopath sniping you from behind some hiding place, or killing you in your sleep, so the gun wouldn't really help.

 

Word. Which then suggests something about the person who is adamant about bringing guns on the trail for "protection"; given the above analysis, the gun carrying hiker out for a walk, in order to adjust the odds in his favor, would need to regard every hiker they meet with immediate, high level suspicion and fear and keep a close eye on their every move as they pass one another, not to mention a finger on the trigger. Now if I'm that other hiker, I'm pretty sure that this suspicious, gun packing man giving me the stinkeye as I go by is going to leave me a lot more scared of him than the other way around.

[StevenSeagal]

Does this mean I will be able to smoke in the Muir hut now?

 

Sure does, Nodder!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Does this mean I will be able to smoke in the Muir hut now?

 

Rob, I know you think smoking pole in public should be legal, but please refrain from said activities in the Muir hut. If you want to do it one of the solar toilets, I guess it's OK. Thank you.

[StevenSeagal]

Does this mean I will be able to smoke in the Muir hut now?

 

Rob, I know you think smoking pole in public should be legal, but please refrain from said activities in the Muir hut. If you want to do it one of the solar toilets, I guess it's OK. Thank you.

 

Just make sure you tap your foot 3 times...

[builder206]

One of the most sublime pleasures in the outdoors is to haul an M1A to the top of Logan then drop a few rounds of .308 on Ragged Ridge snaffle. I love the smell of cordite in the morning.

[sexual_chocolate]

tvash + fairweather = gay pride parade

 

without the fashion sense or gym built bodies

 

that's pretty funny.

 

 

fairweather, 4 of your links referred to the same two incidents, and another was from what, 16 years ago. and sadly enough, all women sans one.

 

I'm sure the list would have been quite a bit longer if all those murderers didn't die in traffic accidents on their way to kill kill kill.

 

 

so all you could drag up was five murders in what, 15 years, and you're so paranoid about hiking yo wanna tote? that's as crazy as the homocidal maniac.